Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Ainu-like phenotypes in South Korea
Topic Started: Jul 14 2015, 04:10:59 AM (176 Views)
sebastianbell
Newbie
[ * ]
I came across photos of a Korean celebrity that made me think she may have some deep Ainu ancestry. Am I mistaken here or is she a good representative of the non-stereotypical Korean phenotype which is of admixed nature?

Posted Image

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
The average Korean is different from the average Han, Manchu and Japanese, it seems to me, because of a marked admixture from a broad-faced population which might have resembled Mongols. However, this admixture is less present in southern Korea and possibly also along the coastal lines of Korea in general. So some features seen in individuals are probably related to the range of phenotypes present prior to this large-scale admixture process. And others could of course have arrived by ship directly from Japan or China.

Unless they look like mainstream North or East Asians, "Ainu-like" people would have relatively large facial bones and rather angular faces. I.e., they would look totally different from the celebrity in your post.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sebastianbell
Newbie
[ * ]
black man
Jul 14 2015, 12:32:27 PM
The average Korean is different from the average Han, Manchu and Japanese, it seems to me, because of a marked admixture from a broad-faced population which might have resembled Mongols. However, this admixture is less present in southern Korea and possibly also along the coastal lines of Korea in general. So some features seen in individuals are probably related to the range of phenotypes present prior to this large-scale admixture process. And others could of course have arrived by ship directly from Japan or China.

Unless they look like mainstream North or East Asians, "Ainu-like" people would have relatively large facial bones and rather angular faces. I.e., they would look totally different from the celebrity in your post.


Thank you for you explanation.

I had the impression that Ainu were themselves mixed with various Paleolithic people. And among them was a pseudo-Caucasian race not related to Mongoloids. One defining distinction between them and pure Mongoloids was nose type. For example, this Ainu man has a very prominent side profile and aquiline nose.

Posted Image

On the other hand pure Mongoloids had a significantly flatter face and nose, especially at the root.

Posted Image

I reasoned that East Asians with big prominent straight noses like this, if they were not mixed with Caucasians, had ancient Ainu ancestry. Nose shape is a very conservative trait.

Posted Image

Posted Image
Edited by sebastianbell, Jul 14 2015, 10:45:32 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
Genetic and archaeology-related craniological studies demonstrated that modern East Asians are descendants of people of different origins whose phenotypes were diverse. Yet, East Asians seem to be very picky as for nose shapes. Currently, there is an urban Han Chinese trend in favour of straight noses which have a very flat root. Prior to that, there might have been more convex noses in men and more concave noses in women. (The latter was still the case in the rural control sample of a recent study.) Similarly, mainstream Japanese have a significant amount of Jomon-period admixture. But the nose shapes which appear to have been typical for Jomon-period inhabitants of the archipelago hardly show up in the mainstream regions today.

When you perceive an overlap of Western and Ainu nose shapes, it's because Westerners preserved relatively many different nose shapes. Moreover, there is one thing of potential interest: in parts of North and East Asia, such as the Amur region, there are indigenous people who preserved "Amerindian-like" features, such as prominent noses. And since some Ainus once moved from Sakhalin to the Amur and back again, it's plausible that a few Ainus got such noses due to admixture events. Apart from that, a few Ainus who lived on Russian territory had Russian ancestors according to their own statements. They or their descendants probably moved to Hokkaidou, too.

In any case, the average Hokkadiou Ainu nose seems to have been short, relatively broad and only moderately prominent. Maybe their noses were a bit more prominent than the noses of many rural East and SE Asians whose noses are less flat than those of urban E and SE Asians. But they were certainly not much more prominent than the noses of, e.g., Papuans. Also, as far as I remember the side profiles of Hokkaidou Ainus on old pictures, they tended to have wavy nose profiles like many rural E and SE Asians, not mentioned certain North Asian aborigines.

All in all, the trend seems to have been closer to trends in SE Asia and regions of the south of it. And that's not just because Ainus tended to have relatively short and broad noses: in contrast to their immediate neighbours, Ainus often had deep-set eyes which emphasised the prominence of their noses.

...

Back to the first photos, maybe she simply has rural ancestors.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
sebastianbell
Jul 14 2015, 10:40:18 PM
black man
Jul 14 2015, 12:32:27 PM
The average Korean is different from the average Han, Manchu and Japanese, it seems to me, because of a marked admixture from a broad-faced population which might have resembled Mongols. However, this admixture is less present in southern Korea and possibly also along the coastal lines of Korea in general. So some features seen in individuals are probably related to the range of phenotypes present prior to this large-scale admixture process. And others could of course have arrived by ship directly from Japan or China.

Unless they look like mainstream North or East Asians, "Ainu-like" people would have relatively large facial bones and rather angular faces. I.e., they would look totally different from the celebrity in your post.


Thank you for you explanation.

I had the impression that Ainu were themselves mixed with various Paleolithic people. And among them was a pseudo-Caucasian race not related to Mongoloids. One defining distinction between them and pure Mongoloids was nose type. For example, this Ainu man has a very prominent side profile and aquiline nose.

http://i.imgur.com/qtwS2iV.png

On the other hand pure Mongoloids had a significantly flatter face and nose, especially at the root.

http://i.imgur.com/zDx9W5G.jpg

I reasoned that East Asians with big prominent straight noses like this, if they were not mixed with Caucasians, had ancient Ainu ancestry. Nose shape is a very conservative trait.

http://i.imgur.com/SW2s1Uh.png

http://i.imgur.com/zgAm2pi.jpg


Posted Image
The Jomon type is well-documented to be like this. The skeletal basis of the nose was broad but somewhat prominent.
Admixture with the Yayoi Korean type, long-faced with long narrow noses, would theoretically produce a plethora of combinational types, one of which is your pic.

BTW, that Korean is not unusual.[/url]
Edited by ren, Jul 16 2015, 07:47:52 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sebastianbell
Newbie
[ * ]
ren
Jul 15 2015, 11:28:27 PM
The Jomon type is well-documented to be like this. The skeletal basis of the nose was broad but somewhat prominent.
Admixture with the Yayoi Korean type, long-faced with long narrow noses, would theoretically produce a plethora of combinational types, one of which is your pic.

BTW, that Korean is not unusual.
It seems like the Jomon admixture is spread widely in East Asia. It most likely happened several times in China before the expansion of those people into Korea and Japan. So the Yayoi component already had a 'mestizo' population who differentiated themselves from other Mongoloids with the more southern aborigine-like component.

This mixed type with a prominent nose must have been preferred since at least the pre-Huaxia era, as I often see them as actors or celebrities in East Asian countries. In comparison I see the standard flat-nosed Mongoloid type (without Europid admixture) more often in Mongolians or related people who were separated early from the Chinese ancestors.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Posted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
As I said, the Jomon face (frontal skull) is well-documented, to be wide, short, with a wide, short nose that is somewhat prominent.
Posted Image
If you are seeing Ainus everywhere, it is perhaps a case of seeing what you want to see.
These are just regular Asians you are posting.
Edited by ren, Jul 16 2015, 07:52:30 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sebastianbell
Newbie
[ * ]
ren
Jul 16 2015, 07:51:25 AM
As I said, the Jomon face (frontal skull) is well-documented, to be wide, short, with a wide, short nose that is somewhat prominent.
Posted Image
If you are seeing Ainus everywhere, it is perhaps a case of seeing what you want to see.
These are just regular Asians you are posting.
Ainu is a misnomer on my part. They are something else.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
sebastianbell
Jul 16 2015, 01:51:10 AM
ren
Jul 15 2015, 11:28:27 PM
The Jomon type is well-documented to be like this. The skeletal basis of the nose was broad but somewhat prominent.
Admixture with the Yayoi Korean type, long-faced with long narrow noses, would theoretically produce a plethora of combinational types, one of which is your pic.

BTW, that Korean is not unusual.
It seems like the Jomon admixture is spread widely in East Asia. It most likely happened several times in China before the expansion of those people into Korea and Japan. So the Yayoi component already had a 'mestizo' population who differentiated themselves from other Mongoloids with the more southern aborigine-like component.

This mixed type with a prominent nose must have been preferred since at least the pre-Huaxia era, as I often see them as actors or celebrities in East Asian countries. In comparison I see the standard flat-nosed Mongoloid type (without Europid admixture) more often in Mongolians or related people who were separated early from the Chinese ancestors.
Noses as well as faces as a whole keep on growing during adulthood...

Flat faces were originally co-selected together with a robust build and physical strength in the cold parts of North Asia. Because a robust build makes people look older than they really are, early EEAs from robust populations were prone to choose wives who had flat faces because flat faces made these women appear to look less old again. In this sense, "robust build plus flat face" was one happy medium combination: robust build signalised physical strength and adulthood, whereas a flat face signalised that the person was not too old to be fertile.

Maybe due to climate change, robust, flat-faced people from the North were forced to adapt to life in temperate climates. That might have made them mix with thinner people whose noses were more prominent. Obviously, a robust build is less well adapted to heat, especially when a person sweats less than others. So the more they went to the south, they had to accept that thin people were probably better workers in southern climates. But the nose shape didn't have to change. And with Chinese people taking a look at the nose of people first even today, there shouldn't be any doubt that they should just preserved the beauty ideals of their northern ancestors.

However, selection processes seem to have been different in the ancestors of the Japanese and, e.g., certain southern and western East Asians. These people might have been matrilocal for a relatively long period of time. Thus, the face of a woman didn't matter much. Rather, her family might have been prone to choose a husband whose face looked relatively old, i.e., implying experience but not the impetuosity of stereotypical youths. That's IMO probably why prominent noses were preserved in certain parts of East Asia. It doesn't have anything to do with the Jomon people, whose descendants remained more or less isolated from most other East Asians for relatively long period of time.

The long face in combination with a prominent nose is a slightly different issue. Since it seems to correlate with a thin build in some populations, it might have been associated with people who didn't do any manual work in order to survive, i.e., with people who had servants.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
luxemen
Member
[ *  * ]
black man
Jul 17 2015, 03:54:33 PM
sebastianbell
Jul 16 2015, 01:51:10 AM
ren
Jul 15 2015, 11:28:27 PM
The Jomon type is well-documented to be like this. The skeletal basis of the nose was broad but somewhat prominent.
Admixture with the Yayoi Korean type, long-faced with long narrow noses, would theoretically produce a plethora of combinational types, one of which is your pic.

BTW, that Korean is not unusual.
It seems like the Jomon admixture is spread widely in East Asia. It most likely happened several times in China before the expansion of those people into Korea and Japan. So the Yayoi component already had a 'mestizo' population who differentiated themselves from other Mongoloids with the more southern aborigine-like component.

This mixed type with a prominent nose must have been preferred since at least the pre-Huaxia era, as I often see them as actors or celebrities in East Asian countries. In comparison I see the standard flat-nosed Mongoloid type (without Europid admixture) more often in Mongolians or related people who were separated early from the Chinese ancestors.
Noses as well as faces as a whole keep on growing during adulthood...

Flat faces were originally co-selected together with a robust build and physical strength in the cold parts of North Asia. Because a robust build makes people look older than they really are, early EEAs from robust populations were prone to choose wives who had flat faces because flat faces made these women appear to look less old again. In this sense, "robust build plus flat face" was one happy medium combination: robust build signalised physical strength and adulthood, whereas a flat face signalised that the person was not too old to be fertile.

Maybe due to climate change, robust, flat-faced people from the North were forced to adapt to life in temperate climates. That might have made them mix with thinner people whose noses were more prominent. Obviously, a robust build is less well adapted to heat, especially when a person sweats less than others. So the more they went to the south, they had to accept that thin people were probably better workers in southern climates. But the nose shape didn't have to change. And with Chinese people taking a look at the nose of people first even today, there shouldn't be any doubt that they should just preserved the beauty ideals of their northern ancestors.

However, selection processes seem to have been different in the ancestors of the Japanese and, e.g., certain southern and western East Asians. These people might have been matrilocal for a relatively long period of time. Thus, the face of a woman didn't matter much. Rather, her family might have been prone to choose a husband whose face looked relatively old, i.e., implying experience but not the impetuosity of stereotypical youths. That's IMO probably why prominent noses were preserved in certain parts of East Asia. It doesn't have anything to do with the Jomon people, whose descendants remained more or less isolated from most other East Asians for relatively long period of time.

The long face in combination with a prominent nose is a slightly different issue. Since it seems to correlate with a thin build in some populations, it might have been associated with people who didn't do any manual work in order to survive, i.e., with people who had servants.
This is altogether a very interesting analysis that I'd never come across in any other forums before.

But I'd tend to agree, a more narrow profile with a longer, more prominent nose seems to be more or less associated with a certain socioeconomic class in East Asia, rather than with any particular group of race, say the Jomon. And in those nobility circles, those traits may have been 'preserved' better.

Actually, Jomon's are not exactly known for longer or exceptionally prominent noses; if anything, they are known to have relatively shorter, broader nose with bigger nose bulbs than the Yayoi.

That Korean girl is not that unusual. It may be more difficult to find a Korean person with naturally round eyes with visible double eyelids but finding a Korean person who's got a naturally relatively narrow and prominent nose is fairly easy to find, and esp. among men.

Edited by luxemen, Apr 26 2018, 08:34:12 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
^
Welcome to this forum, Nurizone.

I appreciate your knowledge about contemporary fashion history. It would be interesting to read more about the impact of recent trends on human physiology.

Please tell us if there is anything wrong with the access to forum sections. In a worst case scenario, we'd have to "reset" as for member groups. But we'd do so as quickly as possible.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
2 users reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums with no limits on posts or members.
Learn More · Register Now
« Previous Topic · Korean · Next Topic »
Add Reply