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Original NRY lineage(s) of Baikaloid type
Topic Started: Aug 27 2013, 12:43:24 PM (512 Views)
black man
The Right Hand
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Y-chromosomal lineages and phenotypes are exposed to selection mechanisms which affect them to different degrees. E.g., a y-chromosomal lineage may thrive because of good clan organisation and migration to previously uninhabited parts of the world (bottleneck and founder effects). And phenotypes are exposed to factors like local, regional or subcultural fashions...

Btw, this passage of your post...
Quote:
 
Haplogroup Q1a1-M120 is a sub-branch of Q that is endemic to East Asia. It reaches a frequency around 2% to 4% among Northern Chinese. Some reports say that Q1a1-M120 is detected among Vietnamese samples. Q1a1-M120 is also detected among the samples retrieved from the skeletons found in two important bronze age sites of Northern China, one is the royal tomb of the Peng Kingdom in the Jiang County of Shanxi province, the other one is the Pengyang site in Ningxia province. The male skeletons found in the later site belong exclusively to Q1a1-M120.


seems to be partly based on this one...
http://historum.com/asian-history/55954-hongshan-culture-genetic-results-came-out.html#post1435709?postcount=6
Quote:
 
Results came out:

Peng aristocracy belonged to haplogroup Q1a1-M120, which is an East Asian sub-clade of Q-M242.

Other male skeletons found in this tomb belonged to different sub-clades of haplogroup O-M175. They could probably represent the genetic composition of Northern Chinese during the Western Zhou period. For instance, haplogroups O2a, O*, O2*, and O3a* had been detected among the ordinary male skeletons (people who did not belong to aristocracy) in the Peng tomb.

O2a, O3a*, O2*, O*, these haplogroups could probably explain why Neolithic and Bronze Age Chinese seemed to have more Southeast Asian features than modernday Chinese.


So are you the poster "purakjelia" from that forum?

Or are you this poster http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/profile/4099906/ who posted in our forum in July?

We have to ask because everybody should back up the information he gives (references to author/s and source/s) and because all members should have one account only. (If you have two accounts, we'll merge them. Or we'll delete your older account.)
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skywalker
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@black man
I think the original source is actually 《中国北方古代人群Y染色体遗传多样性研究》. The paper also talks about Q1a-M120 and its significant presence in the Zhou dynasty era of Shanxi province's 横北村, which part of the newly discovered 倗国/Peng kingdom, unrecorded in Chinese history. Shanxi is just south of the Gobi desert. The lack of this haplogroup in the Neolithic southeastern terminus of the Mongolian steppe may suggest a pre-Neolithic emergence of Q1a-M120 in the Loess Plateau south of the Gobi.
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black man
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skywalker
Aug 27 2013, 04:58:37 PM
Shanxi is just south of the Gobi desert. The lack of this haplogroup in the Neolithic southeastern terminus of the Mongolian steppe may suggest a pre-Neolithic emergence of Q1a-M120 in the Loess Plateau south of the Gobi.
But a potential "root" version appears to be absent from both China (Zhong Hua et al. 2011, Extended Y Chromosome Investigation, fig. 2, n=3826) and Mongolia (Battaglia et al. 2013, The First Peopling of South America, table 1, n=1145). Early carriers of the M120+ mutation could have been from what is now Afghanistan and Tajikistan and might have circumvented much of the most arid eco-systems by migrating along to the mountain ranges (Pamirs, Tian Shans, southern Altais) to what is now Shanxi. (I don't know when climate allowed this, though.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Altai%2CTienschan-Orte.png
Posted Image
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MNOPS
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black man
Aug 27 2013, 12:43:24 PM
Y-chromosomal lineages and phenotypes are exposed to selection mechanisms which affect them to different degrees. E.g., a y-chromosomal lineage may thrive because of good clan organisation and migration to previously uninhabited parts of the world (bottleneck and founder effects). And phenotypes are exposed to factors like local, regional or subcultural fashions...

Btw, this passage of your post...
Quote:
 
Haplogroup Q1a1-M120 is a sub-branch of Q that is endemic to East Asia. It reaches a frequency around 2% to 4% among Northern Chinese. Some reports say that Q1a1-M120 is detected among Vietnamese samples. Q1a1-M120 is also detected among the samples retrieved from the skeletons found in two important bronze age sites of Northern China, one is the royal tomb of the Peng Kingdom in the Jiang County of Shanxi province, the other one is the Pengyang site in Ningxia province. The male skeletons found in the later site belong exclusively to Q1a1-M120.


seems to be partly based on this one...
http://historum.com/asian-history/55954-hongshan-culture-genetic-results-came-out.html#post1435709?postcount=6
Quote:
 
Results came out:

Peng aristocracy belonged to haplogroup Q1a1-M120, which is an East Asian sub-clade of Q-M242.

Other male skeletons found in this tomb belonged to different sub-clades of haplogroup O-M175. They could probably represent the genetic composition of Northern Chinese during the Western Zhou period. For instance, haplogroups O2a, O*, O2*, and O3a* had been detected among the ordinary male skeletons (people who did not belong to aristocracy) in the Peng tomb.

O2a, O3a*, O2*, O*, these haplogroups could probably explain why Neolithic and Bronze Age Chinese seemed to have more Southeast Asian features than modernday Chinese.


So are you the poster "purakjelia" from that forum?

Or are you this poster http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/profile/4099906/ who posted in our forum in July?

We have to ask because everybody should back up the information he gives (references to author/s and source/s) and because all members should have one account only. (If you have two accounts, we'll merge them. Or we'll delete your older account.)

I'm neither of them. I'm just a new member on this forum. I first saw that data on a well-renowned Chinese anthropological forum called Ranhaer forum. The source of that data is from an academic paper called "中国北方古代人群Y染色体遗传多样性研究" (The research of the diversity of Y-chromosome DNA among the ancient populations of northern China) published by Jilin University in 2012. Skywalker got the information right.

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black man
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Thanks for the information and welcome to this forum, MNOPS.
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MNOPS
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My guess is that the first carriers of the Mongoloid phenotype should be either haplogroup C or haplogroup D.

These two lineages are the oldest outside of Africa, and their estimated age is about 60000 to 50000 years old. Both can be found in the Asia-Pacific region. Since C and D most likely arrived in Asia earlier than NOP, they must have had a longer time to adapt to the Asian environment and to evolve the Mongoloid characteristics.

I believe that the most likely candidate for the first carriers of the Mongoloid phenotype should be haplogroup C, since C is much more widespread in the Asia-Pacific region than haplogroup D, and also, C3 reaches the highest frequencies among the Tungusic and Mongolic peoples of Northeast Asia, while D is almost absent from that region.

It's possible that NOP had obtained Mongoloid characteristics through intermixing with the haplogroup C populations of North Asia.
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Ebizur
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MNOPS
Aug 29 2013, 04:09:39 AM
My guess is that the first carriers of the Mongoloid phenotype should be either haplogroup C or haplogroup D.

These two lineages are the oldest outside of Africa, and their estimated age is about 60000 to 50000 years old. Both can be found in the Asia-Pacific region. Since C and D most likely arrived in Asia earlier than NOP, they must have had a longer time to adapt to the Asian environment and to evolve the Mongoloid characteristics.

I believe that the most likely candidate for the first carriers of the Mongoloid phenotype should be haplogroup C, since C is much more widespread in the Asia-Pacific region than haplogroup D, and also, C3 reaches the highest frequencies among the Tungusic and Mongolic peoples of Northeast Asia, while D is almost absent from that region.

It's possible that NOP had obtained Mongoloid characteristics through intermixing with the haplogroup C populations of North Asia.
The problem is that the extant representatives of C-M130 or D-M174 belong to subclades that exhibit small intraclade variance (entailing a relatively recent TMRCA) but large interclade variance (entailing a relatively ancient TMRCA for the larger group, i.e. C-M130 or D-M174, as a whole). The geographical distribution of each of these recently expanded subclades of C-M130 or D-M174 is also relatively constricted, with e.g. D2-M55 and C1-M8 being found almost only in Japan, D3a-P47 being found almost only in the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, C4-M347 being found only in Australia, and so on. This is not the same pattern as subclades of F-M89 (including those that fall within the major K-M9 branch), whose intraclade variance values are almost equal to their interclade variance values (entailing a rapid diversification and preservation of accumulated diversity since the time of the F-M89 founder), and which are often shared among many ethnographically distinct groups spread across wide swaths of territory.

If either C-M130 or D-M174 were the original carriers of the "Mongoloid phenotype," then the "Mongoloid phenotype" should be both (1) ancient and (2) internally diverse, with many readily distinguishable subtypes.

In regard to point (1), there is not much palaeoanthropological evidence to support the hypothesis of an ancient origin of the "Mongoloid phenotype." On the other hand, of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In regard to point (2), the traditional view is that Mongoloids are a rather homogeneous race that has expanded recently from a singular region of origin. Some recent anthropometric analyses have challenged that prevailing view, but this presents a new conundrum: if "Mongoloid" is actually a loose (or even polyphyletic) assortment of diverse populations, then those populations must be both ancient and more or less genetically isolated from one another, which is most easily explicable by geographical separation, but if the ancestral Mongoloid populations were geographically separated from one another, then they should have been scattered across many territories, and therefore palaeoanthropological evidence of ancient Mongoloids should be found more readily in various places.

Another problem is that some subclades of C-M130 or D-M174 are typical of populations that are not considered to be Mongoloid at all (e.g. C4-M347 in Australian aborigines, C2-M38 in Dani/Lani, D*-M174 in Onges and Jarawas), and, conversely, many Mongoloid populations do not exhibit any C-M130 or D-M174 (e.g. Taiwan aborigines, Yupiks) or only exhibit a subclade of one or the other (e.g. Polynesians exhibit C2a-M208 but no D-M174, Tungus exhibit C3b2a-M77 but no D-M174).

On the other hand, some subclade of MNOPS-M526 is found in every population that is generally considered to be "Mongoloid," and the internal diversification of MNOPS-M526 is roughly coincident with the internal diversification of Mongoloids according to data from other sources (i.e. haplogroup Q branches off before the split between N and O, and it is typically found in American Mongoloids, haplogroup N is typically found in North Asian Mongoloids, and haplogroup O is typically found in East/Southeast Asian Mongoloids; North Asian Mongoloids and East/Southeast Asian Mongoloids also share some characteristics in autosomal DNA that are not shared with American Mongoloids).

Personally, I find it rather intriguing that East Asian Mongoloids exhibit subclades of D, C, and F on the patrilineal side and M, N(xR), and R on the matrilineal side, which is a pattern one should expect to find in a population that is close to the origin of AMHs of Greater Eurasia, and not in a recently expanded subpopulation of a subpopulation of a subpopulation of AMHs.
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MNOPS
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JCA
Aug 30 2013, 06:46:14 AM
MNOPS
Aug 29 2013, 04:09:39 AM
My guess is that the first carriers of the Mongoloid phenotype should be either haplogroup C or haplogroup D.

These two lineages are the oldest outside of Africa, and their estimated age is about 60000 to 50000 years old. Both can be found in the Asia-Pacific region. Since C and D most likely arrived in Asia earlier than NOP, they must have had a longer time to adapt to the Asian environment and to evolve the Mongoloid characteristics.

I believe that the most likely candidate for the first carriers of the Mongoloid phenotype should be haplogroup C, since C is much more widespread in the Asia-Pacific region than haplogroup D, and also, C3 reaches the highest frequencies among the Tungusic and Mongolic peoples of Northeast Asia, while D is almost absent from that region.

It's possible that NOP had obtained Mongoloid characteristics through intermixing with the haplogroup C populations of North Asia.

The problem is that the extant representatives of C-M130 or D-M174 belong to subclades that exhibit small intraclade variance (entailing a relatively recent TMRCA) but large interclade variance (entailing a relatively ancient TMRCA for the larger group, i.e. C-M130 or D-M174, as a whole). The geographical distribution of each of these recently expanded subclades of C-M130 or D-M174 is also relatively constricted, with e.g. D2-M55 and C1-M8 being found almost only in Japan, D3a-P47 being found almost only in the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, C4-M347 being found only in Australia, and so on. This is not the same pattern as subclades of F-M89 (including those that fall within the major K-M9 branch), whose intraclade variance values are almost equal to their interclade variance values (entailing a rapid diversification and preservation of accumulated diversity since the time of the F-M89 founder), and which are often shared among many ethnographically distinct groups spread across wide swaths of territory.

If either C-M130 or D-M174 were the original carriers of the "Mongoloid phenotype," then the "Mongoloid phenotype" should be both (1) ancient and (2) internally diverse, with many readily distinguishable subtypes.

In regard to point (1), there is not much palaeoanthropological evidence to support the hypothesis of an ancient origin of the "Mongoloid phenotype." On the other hand, of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In regard to point (2), the traditional view is that Mongoloids are a rather homogeneous race that has expanded recently from a singular region of origin. Some recent anthropometric analyses have challenged that prevailing view, but this presents a new conundrum: if "Mongoloid" is actually a loose (or even polyphyletic) assortment of diverse populations, then those populations must be both ancient and more or less genetically isolated from one another, which is most easily explicable by geographical separation, but if the ancestral Mongoloid populations were geographically separated from one another, then they should have been scattered across many territories, and therefore palaeoanthropological evidence of ancient Mongoloids should be found more readily in various places.

Another problem is that some subclades of C-M130 or D-M174 are typical of populations that are not considered to be Mongoloid at all (e.g. C4-M347 in Australian aborigines, C2-M38 in Dani/Lani, D*-M174 in Onges and Jarawas), and, conversely, many Mongoloid populations do not exhibit any C-M130 or D-M174 (e.g. Taiwan aborigines, Yupiks) or only exhibit a subclade of one or the other (e.g. Polynesians exhibit C2a-M208 but no D-M174, Tungus exhibit C3b2a-M77 but no D-M174).

On the other hand, some subclade of MNOPS-M526 is found in every population that is generally considered to be "Mongoloid," and the internal diversification of MNOPS-M526 is roughly coincident with the internal diversification of Mongoloids according to data from other sources (i.e. haplogroup Q branches off before the split between N and O, and it is typically found in American Mongoloids, haplogroup N is typically found in North Asian Mongoloids, and haplogroup O is typically found in East/Southeast Asian Mongoloids; North Asian Mongoloids and East/Southeast Asian Mongoloids also share some characteristics in autosomal DNA that are not shared with American Mongoloids).

Personally, I find it rather intriguing that East Asian Mongoloids exhibit subclades of D, C, and F on the patrilineal side and M, N(xR), and R on the matrilineal side, which is a pattern one should expect to find in a population that is close to the origin of AMHs of Greater Eurasia, and not in a recently expanded subpopulation of a subpopulation of a subpopulation of AMHs.

Perhaps the Mongoloid phenotype is not really related to the original C-M130 or D-M174 coastal migrants, but what about their subclades? What about C3 in particular?

I believe that haplogroup C3 is strongly associated with the Mongoloid phenotype. C3 can be detected among almost all of the Mongoloid populations in the Asia-Pacific region, from Southeast Asians and Southern Chinese all the way to the Na-Dene peoples of Northwest Canada and US. Populations with higher frequencies of C3 seem to show stronger Mongoloid characteristics. For example, North Asian Mongolic and Tungusic peoples have high frequencies of C3, and they seem to show stronger Mongoloid characteristics than the Southeast Asians with haplogroup O. And also, the C3b Na-Dene peoples seem to look more like Asians than other Native Americans populations with haplogroup Q.

Geneticists have proved that there are two major branches under C-M130. The first one is the southern branch, which is comprised of C*, C1, and C5 (C2 and C4 might also be included in the southern branch), while the other one is the northern C3 branch. Geneticists have estimated that the northern C3 branch had diverged from the southern C branches at around 40000 years before present. This date seem to concur with anthropological evidences. Recently, anthropologists have found a leg bone belonging to a 40000-year-old AMH in the Tianyuan Cave on the outskirts of Beijing. Subsequent genetic analysis of this bone have shown that the Tianyuan caveman is a possible ancestor of modernday Asians and Native Americans. Hence, my opinion is that the Mongoloid phenotype most likely formed around 40000 years ago, and C3 peoples might have played a major role in the formation of this phenotype.

Not all the subclades of MNOPS-M526 are found in the Mongoloid populations. For example, haplogroups M and S are found among the native peoples of Papua New Guinea and Melanesia, and these peoples are considered to be Australoid. And also, haplogroup R, a descendant of haplogroup P and a brother clade of haplogroup Q, is found among Indo-European populations.

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Ebizur
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Quote:
 
Perhaps the Mongoloid phenotype is not really related to the original C-M130 or D-M174 coastal migrants, but what about their subclades? What about C3 in particular?

I believe that haplogroup C3 is strongly associated with the Mongoloid phenotype. C3 can be detected among almost all of the Mongoloid populations in the Asia-Pacific region, from Southeast Asians and Southern Chinese all the way to the Na-Dene peoples of Northwest Canada and US. Populations with higher frequencies of C3 seem to show stronger Mongoloid characteristics. For example, North Asian Mongolic and Tungusic peoples have high frequencies of C3, and they seem to show stronger Mongoloid characteristics than the Southeast Asians with haplogroup O. And also, the C3b Na-Dene peoples seem to look more like Asians than other Native Americans populations with haplogroup Q.

Haplogroup C3-M217 is rare in Southeast Asia, and is found there almost exclusively in populations that are known to have had recent interactions with Chinese people on a massive scale (e.g. Vietnamese, whose language has been Sinified to the extent that it almost appears to be a Chinese dialect) or in some enigmatic, geographically isolated populations that appear to be somewhat different from their neighbors (e.g. Garos and Khasis in Meghalaya, India).

As for North American (not exclusively Na-Dene-speaking) members of C3b1-P39, they are now known to be especially closely related patrilineally to North/Central Asians in C3b2a-M77/M86 (particularly Tungus and Kazakhs, but also many other Turks, Mongols, Nanais, etc.) and C3b2-M48(xC3b2a-M77/M86) (mainly Koryaks, but also some Yukaghirs, Evens, etc. in extreme Northeast Asia). If you take Mongols and Tungus to be the epitome of Mongoloidness, then, obviously, indigenous populations of North America, such as Na-Dene peoples, who contain patrilineally closely related representatives of C3b1-P39, will appear "more Mongoloid" than other populations who do not share such recent common ancestry. However, in reality, most North American and North Asian populations (including Mongols and Kazakhs, who are on a cline toward East Asians or Central Asians, respectively) exhibit notable amounts of Caucasoid autosomal admixture, which in the case of North Americans is surely quite recent (i.e. post-Columbian). They may appear to be extremely "Mongoloid" or "Asian" morphologically, but they are genetically actually admixed with recent Caucasoids.

I would also point out that the American populations who belong almost exclusively to Y-DNA haplogroup Q, such as South American indigenous groups, are genetically less Caucasoid than North American indigenes with C3b1-P39, though this is probably because of less post-Columbian admixture in South America. South American populations also exhibit on average much higher frequencies of mtDNA haplogroups C and D (derivatives of the overwhelmingly Asian macrohaplogroup M) compared to North and Central Americans, who tend to belong to mtDNA haplogroup A2 or B2 (ultimately derived from macrohaplogroup N).

Quote:
 
Geneticists have proved that there are two major branches under C-M130. The first one is the southern branch, which is comprised of C*, C1, and C5 (C2 and C4 might also be included in the southern branch), while the other one is the northern C3 branch. Geneticists have estimated that the northern C3 branch had diverged from the southern C branches at around 40000 years before present. This date seem to concur with anthropological evidences.

It is known at present that Japanese C1-M8 and European C6-V20 comprise a monophyletic sister clade to South/Central/West Asian C5-M356. Thus, haplogroup C may be divided into four distinct clades: C5+{C1+C6}, C4, C3, and C2. The relationships among these four clades are not yet known with any certainty, though C2-M38 appears to be the most distinctive, and C3-M217 appears to be the second-most distinctive, in regard to Y-STR haplotypes. In other words, there is a possibility (though unlikely according to geography and anthropology) that Australian C4 may be more closely related to South Asian/Central Asian/West Asian/European/Japanese C5+{C1+C6} than either of those groups is related to Melanesian/Oceanian C2-M38 or North Asian/American C3-M217, but it is almost certain that neither C2-M38 nor C3-M217 is closely related to any other clade.

Quote:
 
Recently, anthropologists have found a leg bone belonging to a 40000-year-old AMH in the Tianyuan Cave on the outskirts of Beijing. Subsequent genetic analysis of this bone have shown that the Tianyuan caveman is a possible ancestor of modernday Asians and Native Americans. Hence, my opinion is that the Mongoloid phenotype most likely formed around 40000 years ago, and C3 peoples might have played a major role in the formation of this phenotype.

I think a rough outline of the problems regarding the genesis of Mongoloids might be as follows:

1. Northern East Asians, North Asians, and Americans share the same mtDNA clades at the level of A, B, C, D. Most East Asian and North Asian populations have G and Z, and some American populations have X, in addition to the four aforementioned haplogroups. East Asians also have N9 and M7 (often considered to be stereotypically "Joumon" haplogroups) in addition to the stereotypically North Asian and/or American haplogroups.

2. Southeast Asians share haplogroup B with East Asians and Americans, but this haplogroup is practically absent from indigenous North Asians. Southeast Asians also share haplogroup F, another derivative of macrohaplogroup R, with East Asians, but this haplogroup is absent from Native Americans, and its representation in North Asia would be almost as sparse as that of haplogroup B if it were not for its extremely high frequency in a few populations (e.g. Shors, Khakas, Kets). Haplogroup D, which is found almost universally in East Asia, North Asia, and America, is found with only low frequency in Southeast Asia, especially in the form of the subclade D5. The two other East Asian/North Asian/American mtDNA haplogroups, A and C, are essentially absent from Southeast Asia. Southeast Asians share the stereotypically "Joumon" haplogroups, N9 and M7, with East Asians, but not with North Asians or Americans. Austronesians also share mtDNA haplogroup M9'E with Tibetans, but this haplogroup is rare in most other populations of East or Southeast Asia, and it is practically not found in North Asia or America. Most other mtDNA in Southeast Asia belongs to locally specific derivatives of R or N(xR).

3. Northern East Asians, North Asians, and Americans share many stereotypical Mongoloid features (e.g. Sinodonty) that are not so apparent in Southeast Asians, yet most analyses of autosomal DNA variation show a closer relationship among Southeast Asian and (northern) East Asian populations than among either of those groups and either North Asians or Americans. I think several factors may be at play here, including (a) Caucasoid admixture in North Asians and (post-Columbian) Caucasoid and Negroid admixture in Americans drawing these metapopulations away from East Asians and (b) (bidirectional?) admixture between East and Southeast Asians after the ancestors of North Asians and Americans had separated from the (non-Southeast Asian) ancestors of East Asians.
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