| NRY: C3 phylogeny and origins | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 6 2007, 04:24:02 AM (571 Views) | |
| black man | Nov 6 2007, 04:24:02 AM Post #1 |
|
The Right Hand
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Some subgroups within hg C3 (or probably within hg C3): (I'll focus on northerners here because the so far by markers defined subbranches are all northern. At the moment "c" is mainly defined by M48 since M86 is downstream to the former.) Paragroup C3(xC3a,b,c): 8/263 Japanese (N) --------------- Paragroup C3(xC3a,c): 11/39 Daurs (X) 7/26 Evenks/China (X) 5/45 Hezhes (X) 4/35 Huis (X) 8/35 Manchus (X) 17/45 Hailar Mongols (X) 6/31 Oroqens (X) 0/31 Urumchi Uighurs (X) 0/39 Ili Uighurs (X) 9/41 Xibes (X) 5/35 Harbin Hans (X) 2/32 Ili Hans (X) 3/25 Koreans/China (X) 0/33 Qiangs (X) 0/35 Zang Tibetans (X) 6/30 Lanzhou Hans (X) 7/43 South Koreans (X) 1/47 Japanese (X) 22/65 Mongolians (X) furthermore according to Xue present in Meixian and Chengdu Hans, Liannan Yao, She and Hani. Absent from Buyi, Li and Bama Yao samples. ---------------- Paragroup C(xC3c) in Siberians: 4/40 Tuvans (L) 2/19 Tofalars (L) 0/13 Buryats (L) 0/31 Yenisei Evenks (L) 0/16 Okhotsk Evenks (L) 16/53 Ulchis and nanais (L) 0/10 upriver Negidals (L) "20%" of 7 downriver Negidals (L) 0/20 Udeghes (L) 2/17 Nivkhs (L) 7/27 Koryaks (L) 5/18 Itelmens (L) 0/24 Chukchis (L) 0/33 Inuits (L) (The percentages would be higher without the paternally European samples.) --------------- C3a-M93: 0/263 Japanese (N) 1/23 Japanese (U) 0/45 Tamangs (G) 0/66 Newaris (G) 0/77 Kathmanduans (G) 0/156 Tibetans (G) 0/150 Iranians ( R) ------------- C3"d"-M407: 2/18 Yakuts (S) 1/24 Hans (S) -------------- Gayden et al. 2007: "The Himalayas as a Directional Barrier to Gene Flow" Lell et al. 2002: "The Dual Origin and Siberian Affinities of Native American Y Chromosomes" Nonaka et al. 2006: "Y-chromosomal Binary Haplogroups in the Japanese Population and their Relationship to 16 Y-STR Polymorphisms" Regueiro et al. 2007: "Iran: Tricontinental Nexus for Y-Chromosome Driven Migration" Sengupta et al. 2006: "Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists" Underhill et al. 2000: "Y chromosome sequence variation and the history of human populations" Xue et al. 2006: "Male Demography in East Asia: A NorthSouth Contrast in Human Population Expansion Times" |
![]() |
|
| Ebizur | Nov 6 2007, 05:01:02 AM Post #2 |
|
Advanced Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Since my real forte is linguistics, I thought I might comment on the fact that haplogroup C3d-M407 has so far been confirmed only among samples of Yakuts and Han Chinese. The autonym of the Yakuts is "Sakha," which derives from an earlier */ZaXa/ and even earlier from */jaXa/. One might transcribe this reconstructed protoform in English as "Yakha." This same series of sound changes is responsible for the Yakut word /sette/ ("seven"), which is cognate with Turkish "yedi", also meaning "seven." The exonym "Yakut" is most likely derived from a Russian transcription of some Mongolic version of the plural form of the older version of the Yakuts' autonym, */jaXa/; the suffix /-d/ (pronounced as [t] in many Mongolic dialects) is a Mongolic plural marker, same as the /-d/ (or "t") on the end of the ethnonym of the extinct Merkit/Merged. Furthermore, there is also a (presently) Mongolic-speaking tribe in Mongolia that is called the "Zakhchin" or "Zakhachin," and the name of this tribe is potentially cognate with the "Yakut" ethnonym. Now, for the crucial point: there exists an exonym, of the form Nikan or Nyaken, that has been used by Tungusic and Mongolic peoples to refer to the Han Chinese. Nikan is specifically a literary Manchu form, and Nyaken is a spoken Daur form. The etymological origin of the Nikan/Nyaken exonym and the course by which it came to be used in reference to the Han Chinese is unclear, but it is possible that Nikan/Nyaken could ultimately be cognate with Zakhchin/Zakhachin and/or Yakut/Sakha. This is mere conjecture at present, but it is a hypothesis that might deserve some attention. |
![]() |
|
| Ebizur | Nov 6 2007, 05:53:42 AM Post #3 |
|
Advanced Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well, the Yakuts may think whatever they want to think about their own origins, but the fact of the matter is that, speaking from the perspective of a historical linguist, the most likely etymology for their ethnonym is from a proto-Turkic form */jaX(a)/ ("Yakh(a)"), which matches perfectly with the (presumably Mongolic-derived) European exonym for the Yakuts. (Just wanted to note here that the proto-Turkic form should actually be */jak(a)/ rather than */jaX(a)/. The spirantization of the velar consonant in this word did not occur until the proto-North Turkic stage at the earliest, and during the historical development of the Sakha/Yakut language at the latest. I would have to compare modern Sakha forms against their cognates in other North Turkic languages in order to determine precisely at what stage the sound change from */qa/ "(Ya)ka" to /Xa/ "(Sa)kha" occurred.) |
![]() |
|
| Ebizur | Nov 7 2007, 06:29:00 AM Post #4 |
|
Advanced Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Here is a very good monograph by Gregory D. S. Anderson (University of Chicago) on the phonological development of the Yakut/Sakha language from "Common Turkic" (i.e. Proto-Turkic(xChuvash)): http://www.livingtongues.org/docs/yakut_hi...l_phonology.pdf. If ren would be so generous as to spare the time necessary to read through this document, he might find that my claim of an etymological connection between Yakut /saXa/ ("Sakha," the autonym of the Yakuts), English/pan-European "Yakut" (the common European exonym for the Yakuts), and Manchu /nikan/ "Nikan" and Daur /niak@n/ "Nyaken" (exonyms for the Han ethnic group) is not so farfetched as it might seem at first glance. Yakut /s/ in the Yakut version of a native Turkic word is always a reflex of something other than Common Turkic */s/. In other words, the /s/ in "Sakha" cannot be descended from a direct linguistic ancestor that also had */s/. If the ancestral form of "Sakha" had begun with an */s/, it would appear in the Yakut language as */aXa/ ("Akha"), because Common Turkic */s/ is deleted in Yakut. Here are some examples: Yakut: /uu/ "water" Common Turkic: */sub/, */suG/ "water" Anatolian Turkish: /su/ ~ /suj-/ "water" Yakut: /aryy/ "butter" Common Turkic: */saryG/ "yellow" Anatolian Turkish: /sary/ "yellow; blond; yolk, yellow (of an egg); brass; pale, wan, pallid (face)" Meanwhile, Common Turkic */z/ has become Yakut /s/ in word-final position and Yakut /h/ in word-medial position. Common Turkic */c/ ("ch") has become Yakut /s/ in word-initial and word-final position, and Yakut /h/ in word-medial position. Common Turkic */j/ ("y") has become Yakut /s/ in word-initial position, while remaining as /j/ in word-medial and word-final position. This yields the following correspondence sets: Yakut: /as/ "hair" Common Turkic: */sac/ "hair" Anatolian Turkish: /sac/ "hair" (Note that Common Turkic */s/ has been deleted and Common Turkic */c/ has become /s/ in the Yakut form of the word for "hair.") Yakut: /[ae]mis/ "fat" Common Turkic: */s[ae]miz/ "fat" Anatolian Turkish: /semiz/ "fat" Yakut: /suoX/ "not" Common Turkic: */jooq/ "not" Anatolian Turkish: /jok/ (written as "yok" in Latin characters; means "non-existent; absent, unavailable; no; but if not...") Yakut: /sa[ng]a/ "new" Common Turkic: */ja[ng]y/ "new" Anatolian Turkish: /jeni/ "new; recent; newly; recently" ("yeni" in the standard Latin script presently used for writing Anatolian Turkish) Furthermore, Common Turkic */k/ ~ */q/, which were in complementary distribution in the protolanguage, with */k/ occurring in words with front vocalization (*/i/, */e/, */[ae]/, */[oe]/, */[ue]/) and */q/ occurring in words with back vocalization (*/u/, */o/, */a/), becomes /X/ ("kh," a velar fricative) in Yakut when in word-final position or when preceding a back vowel. In other words, Common Turkic */k/ ~ */q/ becomes /X/ ("kh") in Yakut when occurring at the end of a word or before any of the vowels /u/, /o/, or /a/. In summary, for the modern Yakut autonym, /saXa/ ("Sakha"), to be an authentic Yakut autonym (i.e., a name that is really descended from a Turkic word that the ancestors of the Yakuts used for themselves), it must be descended from a Common Turkic form */jaq(a)/ ("Yak" or "Yaka") or */caq(a)/ ("Chak" or "Chaka"). An original */saq(a)/ ("Sak" or "Saka") is not a possibility. As for the etymological origin of the Yakut/Sakha ethnonym, four Turkic etyma stand out as strong possibilities: 1. the etymon reflected in Anatolian Turkish /jaka/ ("yaka"), which means "a collar; an edge, a bank, a shore." This Turkic word is almost certainly related to the Mongolic word that appears in Daur as jahe (/dZaX@/, meaning "edge, frontier") and in Khalkh as zakh(a) (/zaX(-a)/, meaning "collar; outskirts (of a city), border area (of a territory)"). I would note the similarity with Korea's Jeju dialect yagaegi (/jak[ae]ki/, "neck; collar"), as this dialect is known to have received a great deal of Mongolian and Manchu influence during the historical period, in addition to possessing an apparent substratum of unknown affiliation. 2. the etymon reflected in Anatolian Turkish /jakyn/ ("yakIn"), which means "near, close, nearby; close (friend); very similar; nearby place, neighborhood; relative, relation." 3. the etymon reflected in Anatolian Turkish /jakar-/ ("yakar(-mak)"), which means "to beg, to implore, to entreat," and in /jakaryS/ ("yakarIsh"), which means "prayer, entreaty." 4. the etymon reflected in Anatolian Turkish /jak-/ ("yak(-mak)"), which means "to light, to ignite, to set on fire, to set fire to; to burn (up); to scorch, to sear, to burn; (for wool) to irritate; to turn on, to light (electric lights); [figurative] to ruin, to cook (someone's) goose; [figurative] to inflame with love; to apply (henna); to compose (a folk song)." In Tungusic and Indo-European languages, words for "black" are often derived from the verbs for "to burn" or "to scorch," and it is possible that the ancient "proto-Yakuts" might have been named "black ones" for their northerly position relative to the other proto-Turkic tribes (cf. Chinese/Turkic concept of the "Five Phases" and assigning colors to the four points of the compass plus center). (I forgot to mention this when I first made this post, but the Daur and Manchu languages have a word, yaahe (/ja:X@/) in Daur and yaha (/jaXa/) in Manchu, which means "charcoal." This might give the "Yakut" = "burnt ones" = "black ones" hypothesis, which I had originally considered the least likely of the four, somewhat more plausibility.) |
![]() |
|
| manju | Apr 3 2008, 09:33:06 AM Post #5 |
![]()
doubter
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I think 'sa' means bow in Yakut language. So why not sakha meaning bowmen...similar to...Scythian(archer). Proto-Turkic: *jā(j) Altaic etymology: Meaning: bow Yakut: sā |
![]() |
|
| Ebizur | Apr 3 2008, 07:00:43 PM Post #6 |
|
Advanced Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Remember the fact that native Yakut words with /s/ must be derived from Proto-Turkic words with */j/ ("y"). An original Turkic */s/ in word-initial position would, without exception, result in a zero/null value in the Yakut descendant form. Combined with the Proto-Turkic */k/ > /X/ ("kh") / _a sound change on which I have previously remarked, modern Yakut "Sakha" (the people's endonym) must be derived from an earlier */jaka/ ("Yaka"). I don't know whether this "Yaka" ethnonym could have originally meant "Shooters," as the Indo-European ethnonym "Scythian" does. (Note the similarity between "Scythian" (< Greek skuthes) and English "shooter" < */skeud-/ ("shoot") + /-er/.) Basically, the question is whether the second syllable of the Yakuts' endonym (*-qa > -kha) may be a suffix for deriving agentive nouns in a manner similar to English -er. |
![]() |
|
| manju | Apr 4 2008, 03:34:25 AM Post #7 |
![]()
doubter
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Wikipedia says Scythian basically meant Archer. Anyway, even if Yakuts' endonym turn out to mean 'archer' or 'bowman' it need not mean common origins for Scythian and Yakuts. It appears bowmen or archers is a recurring ethnonym across different ethnic groups. In my region, there is a community called Billava whose name means archer or bowman. (Billu -> Bow in Dravidian languages). But because of the nature of the name I feel it's more of an exonym than endonym. |
![]() |
|
| Ebizur | Jul 23 2012, 04:45:29 AM Post #8 |
|
Advanced Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
According to Malyarchuk et al. 2012, the extant Y-STR variance among C3c*-M48(xC3c1-M77, M86) Y-chromosomes from Siberia (found in greatest proportion in the Koryak sample, but also found sporadically in samples of Evenks, Evens, and Yukaghirs) is only about 2/3 of the variance among extant C3c1 Y-chromosomes, which are widely spread in North Asia, especially among speakers of Tungusic, Mongolic, or Turkic languages. So, once again, we have a case where a so-called subclade actually contains more variance than the extant representatives of a so-called paragroup of which the subclade is supposed to be one branch; in reality, the extant C3c* Y-chromosomes must belong to another subclade downstream of M48 and parallel to (but perhaps slightly younger than) the subclade marked by the M77 and M86 mutations. The more diverse of the extant subclades of C3c, which has turned out to be C3c1-M77/M86, has been found to have about 2/3 the total variance of extant C3c-M48 Y-chromosomes (i.e. the superset formed by combining all sampled C3c1-M77/M86 and C3c*-M48(xC3c1-M77, M86) Y-chromosomes). It is good to be reminded that so-called "subclades" are not necessarily younger than so-called "paragroups." |
![]() |
|
| skywalker | Jun 16 2013, 03:38:29 PM Post #9 |
|
Advanced Member
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Distribution pattern indicates a recent expansion of C3 into middle Siberia from the lower Amur and Kamchtka region. Before that, C3 must've been isolated or come from the south, as Chuckchis do not have this lineage.
p. 11 http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG...70_p192-206.pdf
p. 6 http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG...70_p192-206.pdf |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Y-chromosome: CF · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z6.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)




