Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events
Topic Started: Mar 29 2012, 08:35:08 AM (692 Views)
sahaliyan
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288
Note,they find 0 M73 in the Hazaras of Afghanistan,but there are many M73 in Pakistani Hazaras
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
sahaliyan
Mar 29 2012, 08:35:08 AM
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288
Note,they find 0 M73 in the Hazaras of Afghanistan,but there are many M73 in Pakistani Hazaras
In "Guerres et migrations: réseaux sociaux et stratégies économiques" (p. 140) Alessandro Monsutti writes that most Pakistani Hazaras are from southern Afghanistan. According to him, they mainly include people with ancestry from Behsud, Ghazni, Malistan, Jaghori, Nawur and Qarabagh provinces of Afghanistan, all of these being hardly represented among the samples of Haber et al. or not at all.

As I mentioned in the Hazara ethnographic groups thread, 5 of 5 East Eurasian lineages in the Bamiyan Hazaras turned out to be in hg C3. That's just one third of the total Bamiyan sample. More or less the same for the Balkh sample if Q-MEH2+, M378+ and Q-MEH2-(?!) are not East Eurasian. All in all, that's 22=36,7% to 26=43,3% in the total Afghanistani sample.

I.e., the contributions from South Siberia are suspiciously low when East Eurasian lineages only are taken into account. Therefore, I think that we'll have to take a look at West Eurasian lineages which also occur in the Turkic populations of South Siberia. The light pigmentation many Hazaras have in common with South Siberians made me wonder whether Hazara R1a and I-M223 could be from the Altai-Sayan region. Light pigmentation and Western y hgs occur in the Kumandins, frequently carriers of the M73+ mutation (like many Pakistani Hazaras), as well.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
skywalker
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
The most interesting thing I about this study are the true aboriginal lineage of the region, the true Q* (xM378, MEH2), though hardly news now.

The pre-Neolithic people of the region were morphologically very different from the type we see today in that region.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sahaliyan
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Note:based on Y-STR,it's very clear the Baluch O is O2b-M176,the Hazara O is M134+,M117-
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ebizur
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
sahaliyan
Mar 30 2012, 08:52:48 AM
Note:based on Y-STR,it's very clear the Baluch O is O2b-M176,the Hazara O is M134+,M117-
How about the Tajik O-M175 individuals?

In this study of Afghanistani Y-DNA, O-M175 has been found only in Tajiks (i.e. native speakers of Persian, 5/56 = 8.9%), a Baluch (1/13 = 7.7%), and a Hazara (1/60 = 1.7%). It has not been found in any of the study's 18 Afghanistani Turkic speakers (17 Uzbeks plus a Turkmen). Although the number of sampled Turkic speakers is small, it is enough to show that O-M175 Y-DNA probably has not been introduced to Iranic populations of Afghanistan via influence from expanding Turkic populations. Also, note that the Baloch O-M175 (O2b-M176?) individual's father's birth place has been recorded as the city of Kandahar and the Hazara O-M175 (O3-M134?) individual's father's birth place has been recorded as the city of Kabul; these are the two largest cities in Afghanistan.

All this study's Tajik O-M175 individuals have fathers from the provinces of Takhar and Badakhshan in Northeast Afghanistan:

Tajik/Takhar Province, Afghanistan
1/18 = 5.6% G1-M285
2/18 = 11.1% G2a*-P15(xP16,P303)

1/18 = 5.6% I2b1-M223

1/18 = 5.6% J1c3-P58
2/18 = 11.1% J2a*-M410(xM47,M67,M158)
1/18 = 5.6% J2b2-M241

1/18 = 5.6% L1a-M27
1/18 = 5.6% L1c-M357

4/18 = 22.2% O-M175

3/18 = 16.7% R1a1a-M17(xM458)
1/18 = 5.6% R2a-M124

Tajik/Badakhshan Province, Afghanistan
1/9 = 11.1% O-M175

6/9 = 66.7% R1a1a-M17(xM458)
1/9 = 11.1% R1b1a2*-M269(xU106)
1/9 = 11.1% R*-M207(xM173,M124)

An extraordinarily high frequency of haplogroup L has been found in this study's sample of Afghanistani Baloch:

1/13 = 7.7% E1b1b1a1c-V22

8/13 = 61.5% L1a-M27
1/13 = 7.7% L1c-M357

1/13 = 7.7% O-M175

2/13 = 15.4% R2a-M124

Very weird. The Iranic dialects spoken by the Baloch are supposed to be very similar to those spoken by the Kurds in northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, eastern Turkey, etc.


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
sahaliyan
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
JCA
Mar 31 2012, 02:06:34 AM
sahaliyan
Mar 30 2012, 08:52:48 AM
Note:based on Y-STR,it's very clear the Baluch O is O2b-M176,the Hazara O is M134+,M117-
How about the Tajik O-M175 individuals?

In this study of Afghanistani Y-DNA, O-M175 has been found only in Tajiks (i.e. native speakers of Persian, 5/56 = 8.9%), a Baluch (1/13 = 7.7%), and a Hazara (1/60 = 1.7%). It has not been found in any of the study's 18 Afghanistani Turkic speakers (17 Uzbeks plus a Turkmen). Although the number of sampled Turkic speakers is small, it is enough to show that O-M175 Y-DNA probably has not been introduced to Iranic populations of Afghanistan via influence from expanding Turkic populations. Also, note that the Baloch O-M175 (O2b-M176?) individual's father's birth place has been recorded as the city of Kandahar and the Hazara O-M175 (O3-M134?) individual's father's birth place has been recorded as the city of Kabul; these are the two largest cities in Afghanistan.

All this study's Tajik O-M175 individuals have fathers from the provinces of Takhar and Badakhshan in Northeast Afghanistan:

Tajik/Takhar Province, Afghanistan
1/18 = 5.6% G1-M285
2/18 = 11.1% G2a*-P15(xP16,P303)

1/18 = 5.6% I2b1-M223

1/18 = 5.6% J1c3-P58
2/18 = 11.1% J2a*-M410(xM47,M67,M158)
1/18 = 5.6% J2b2-M241

1/18 = 5.6% L1a-M27
1/18 = 5.6% L1c-M357

4/18 = 22.2% O-M175

3/18 = 16.7% R1a1a-M17(xM458)
1/18 = 5.6% R2a-M124

Tajik/Badakhshan Province, Afghanistan
1/9 = 11.1% O-M175

6/9 = 66.7% R1a1a-M17(xM458)
1/9 = 11.1% R1b1a2*-M269(xU106)
1/9 = 11.1% R*-M207(xM173,M124)

An extraordinarily high frequency of haplogroup L has been found in this study's sample of Afghanistani Baloch:

1/13 = 7.7% E1b1b1a1c-V22

8/13 = 61.5% L1a-M27
1/13 = 7.7% L1c-M357

1/13 = 7.7% O-M175

2/13 = 15.4% R2a-M124

Very weird. The Iranic dialects spoken by the Baloch are supposed to be very similar to those spoken by the Kurds in northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, eastern Turkey, etc.


The Uzbek samples here are very different from the Uzbeks of Uzbekistan.The Uzbeks don't have tribes,so the origin of those Uzbeks is hard to say.I think the Hazara O came from the Mongols,the Baluch and Tajik O is hard to say,can be of Turco-Mongol origin and other origins,note in FTDNA,there is one Mongolian O2b,so the O2b is present in Mongolia.
The Uzbek C3 here are similar to star cluster,I think star cluster has nothing to do with the Borjigin family,in my opinion,the Borjigin family should be C3d.
There are 7 Borjigin samples from Outer Mongolia in FTDNA,3 are C3d(close relatives),1 C3*(not star cluster),two O(one is M134*,another one is unknown subclade) and 1 Q
The Tajik O from Badakhshan is difficult to place the subclade,388=14 is uncommon,however the one is M122 for sure.The four Tajik O from Takhar include 1 M134*, 2 M324+,M134-(could be 002611) and 1 M268+,Pk4-
Edited by sahaliyan, Mar 31 2012, 04:04:57 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
JCA
Mar 31 2012, 02:06:34 AM
An extraordinarily high frequency of haplogroup L has been found in this study's sample of Afghanistani Baloch:

1/13 = 7.7% E1b1b1a1c-V22

8/13 = 61.5% L1a-M27
1/13 = 7.7% L1c-M357

1/13 = 7.7% O-M175

2/13 = 15.4% R2a-M124

Very weird. The Iranic dialects spoken by the Baloch are supposed to be very similar to those spoken by the Kurds in northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, eastern Turkey, etc.


I read that people in Afghanistan generally tend to be more clannish. I.e., patrilocal Pashtuns are maybe those who culturally adapted best and, in this sense, a role model to people who want to become successful under these particular historical and geographical conditions.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
manju
Member Avatar
doubter
[ *  *  * ]
black man
Apr 1 2012, 03:31:43 AM
I read that people in Afghanistan generally tend to be more clannish. I.e., patrilocal Pashtuns are maybe those who culturally adapted best and, in this sense, a role model to people who want to become successful under these particular historical and geographical conditions.
Maybe the clannishness of Pathans was the result of Mongolization of their culture. I've read that Mongol invasion and rule resulted in loss of their sedentary civilization and turned them into tribal society headed by Khans (Mongol title).

Do Mongols have ethical codes like Pashtunwali?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
manju
Apr 5 2012, 01:03:39 PM
black man
Apr 1 2012, 03:31:43 AM
I read that people in Afghanistan generally tend to be more clannish. I.e., patrilocal Pashtuns are maybe those who culturally adapted best and, in this sense, a role model to people who want to become successful under these particular historical and geographical conditions.


Maybe the clannishness of Pathans was the result of Mongolization of their culture. I've read that Mongol invasion and rule resulted in loss of their sedentary civilization and turned them into tribal society headed by Khans (Mongol title).
It's interesting that you point to this kind of myth. The Mongols are a relatively recent phenomenon preceded by others in the steppes. And probably, these others were related to the ancestors of the Pashtuns. There are West Asian ethnographic groups culturally closer to the Pashtuns.

"Khan" is just a title originally adopted by people who tried to adapt to new rulers in order to benefit economically etc.

Quote:
 
Do Mongols have ethical codes like Pashtunwali?


- hospitality seems to be a concept spread among pastoralists from the Balkans to Mongolia and China. So it's probably related to lifestyle.
- namus is addressed as specifically "Middle Eastern".
- revenge was spread outside of the world of pastoralists, too.
- ghayrat and tureh seem to be rather unique to Pashtuns. If they occur among other peoples, these are probably Iranics.

It seems to me as if all of these concepts were sort of adapted to the intellectual mind of people in contact with West Asian (Iranic) pastoral nomads. I never came across such elaborated concepts in any context apart from that of the Pashtuns. I suppose that Iranic nomads adapted to their civilised Persian neighbours by this kind of thinking. By contrast, Mongols were linguistically always very distant from their civilised neighbours. So their values and the way they traditionally expressed them were perhaps more archaic and more diverse.

Maybe Mongolian yoso are sort of comparable. But I suppose that the yoso are rooted in a very different historical context. I also never heard or read about Mongols doing things for which Pashtuns are well-known.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
manju
Member Avatar
doubter
[ *  *  * ]
black man
Apr 5 2012, 10:01:39 PM
It's interesting that you point to this kind of myth. The Mongols are a relatively recent phenomenon preceded by others in the steppes. And probably, these others were related to the ancestors of the Pashtuns. There are West Asian ethnographic groups culturally closer to the Pashtuns.
I agree, it's most likely a myth. I was thinking about situation in South Asia where many urban communities might have reverted to tribal life because of climate changes or political reasons.

Pashtuns appear to resemble the Indo-Aryans more than the Iranians (negligible J2a) in their paternal lineages. Do we have a haplogroup study on Lurs?

Quote:
 
An extraordinarily high frequency of haplogroup L has been found in this study's sample of Afghanistani Baloch:


I think Pakistani Baluch have L1 as the second biggest lineage after R1a1. If certain tribes belong predominantly to one lineage then it (Afghan Baluch showing high frequency of a single lineage) shouldn't be a surprise. I guess geneticists need to enumerate their endogamous clan/tribe too.
Edited by manju, Apr 7 2012, 08:54:55 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
manju
Apr 7 2012, 08:13:06 AM
black man
Apr 5 2012, 10:01:39 PM
It's interesting that you point to this kind of myth. The Mongols are a relatively recent phenomenon preceded by others in the steppes. And probably, these others were related to the ancestors of the Pashtuns. There are West Asian ethnographic groups culturally closer to the Pashtuns.
I agree, it's most likely a myth. I was thinking about situation in South Asia where many urban communities might have reverted to tribal life because of climate changes or political reasons.

Pashtuns appear to resemble the Indo-Aryans more than the Iranians (negligible J2a) in their paternal lineages. Do we have a haplogroup study on Lurs?
The development of the Moghols, Hazaras, some more related groups in Afghanistan as well as others in central and western Eurasia in general indicates that Mongolian and other immigrants had to adapt to natives, not vice versa. The Pashtuns of Afghanistan and the Mongols of Mongolia managed to keep their tribal structures alive. But the descendants of the Mongols in Afghanistan are, according to literature, culturally uprooted to the extent that calling them "Mongols" cannot be justified in 99%(?) of all cases.

When there is local continuity, tribal structures have a chance to survive for a longer period of time. By contrast, newcomers are always urged to adapt to local structures in order to get access to the most basic resources. So it's more likely that they have to give up and even deny their roots in order to survive. In times of crisis Pashtuns might simply get back to their tribal roots, that's probably right. But Moghols etc can't do so, probably because their tribal roots have been destroyed during a long-term assimilation process. In order to survive, they had to merge with non-tribal Persians and Tajiks. That's why they are more than 50% genetically non-Mongolian by now.

Whether or on which occasions Persians and Tajiks "reverted to tribal life" would be a different question. Certainly worth investigating. In case that there is interest... link to a thread about what I found in literature so far: http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/topic/8760432/1/

The Bakhtiari belong to the Lurs (though I don't know whether they are Lurs in a non-linguistic sense). Nasidze et al. reported this y hg distribution in their Bakhtiari sample (n=53):
- DE: 8%
- F-M89+, M201-, M170-, M172-: 19%
- G-M201: 15%
- J-M172: 25%
- K-M45-: 13%
- P-M45+, M124-, M173-: 2% => probably Q
- R1-M173+, M17-: 8%
- R1a-M17: 9%
- R2-M124: 2%
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
manju
Member Avatar
doubter
[ *  *  * ]
black man
Apr 7 2012, 06:31:58 PM
When there is local continuity, tribal structures have a chance to survive for a longer period of time. By contrast, newcomers are always urged to adapt to local structures in order to get access to the most basic resources. So it's more likely that they have to give up and even deny their roots in order to survive. In times of crisis Pashtuns might simply get back to their tribal roots, that's probably right. But Moghols etc can't do so, probably because their tribal roots have been destroyed during a long-term assimilation process. In order to survive, they had to merge with non-tribal Persians and Tajiks. That's why they are more than 50% genetically non-Mongolian by now.

The Bakhtiari belong to the Lurs (though I don't know whether they are Lurs in a non-linguistic sense). Nasidze et al. reported this y hg distribution in their Bakhtiari sample (n=53):
- DE: 8%
- F-M89+, M201-, M170-, M172-: 19%
- G-M201: 15%
- J-M172: 25%
- K-M45-: 13%
- P-M45+, M124-, M173-: 2% => probably Q
- R1-M173+, M17-: 8%
- R1a-M17: 9%
- R2-M124: 2%
What you are saying about migrant tribals might be true when you consider religion and language. However, what I meant by reverting to tribal life from civilizational life is about going back to nomadic herding from sedentary farming and trading. Or shift in the power from farming and trading groups to herding groups. Thus changing the cultural outlook of the whole population.

Thanks for the data on the Bhaktiari population. They appear to be typical Iranians with high J2.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
update:

more "Pathan" samples: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-look-at-y-chromosomes-of.html




manju
Apr 9 2012, 01:25:03 PM
What you are saying about migrant tribals might be true when you consider religion and language. However, what I meant by reverting to tribal life from civilizational life is about going back to nomadic herding from sedentary farming and trading. Or shift in the power from farming and trading groups to herding groups. Thus changing the cultural outlook of the whole population.
What distinguishes a tribe is not geographical volatility as such but internal stability and unattractiveness to outsiders. I think that stable territorial groups can have tribal structures as well because of...
- unintelligible language
- unintelligible customs
- local exclusion mechanisms motivated by an interest in keeping status quo

Society is tribal when local and regional hierarchies can coexist and (directly or indirectly) support each other. By contrast, e.g., Japanese feudal society was very anti-tribal in the sense that noblemen could locally replace one farmer by a completely different farmer. I.e., ideally, the internal structure of territorial groups was notoriously unstable in feudal Japan because territorial control and control over social networks were no longer up to locals. Clannish organisation was restricted to people from higher social classes (and maybe their descendants).

Similarly, urbanisation can destroy tribal structures.

Fully civilised people don't become tribal, unless perhaps it's individuals who take the chance to move up the social ladder by leaving their ancestral group. AFAIK, it's male outsiders who would join tribes (rather than well-integrated females). That would be individual cases only. Accordingly, I think that Mongols tend to refute the idea that Han could have joined them because Han are thought to be generally feudal or urban people who obey all kinds of foreign authorities. But Mongols appreciate individual assertiveness and independence from strangers.

When Genghis Khan expanded, he had to arrange with sedentary peoples about steady access to resources. Because the latter have a stable territory, they can protect a great deal of resources all the year round. That's the strength of sedentary people. They can plan in the long run without having to rely on a series of (at worst coincidental) victories on the battlefield. The adoption of a feudal system would additionally increase access to resources.




addendum on honour codes:

as far as I can judge, the concept of honour is needed once there is too much equality to the extent that people don't know who has privileges and who doesn't. Honour is defended when people think or feel the need to defend (or improve) their current status.

It's true that pastoral nomads historically weren't necessarily sure about the exact status of each other. But same for noblemen with a certain level of wealth who lived at a certain distance from each other. So the concept of honour is not primitive but transitional and independent from level of civilisation.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · Y-chromosome: CF · Next Topic »
Add Reply