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The royal family of Korean Lee dynasty
Topic Started: Feb 18 2012, 08:34:24 AM (3,189 Views)
sahaliyan
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Recently,I got a data contain 543 Korean 12 Y-STR samples,the data collected samples from 5 largest Korean surnames:Kim,Lee,Park,Choi and Jeong.
As we know,between 1392-1897 AD,the Jeonju Lee clan is the royal family of Korea.The family is of Baekje origin,later they served the Silla and Goryeo Dynasty .After the Mongol invasion,the family members of this clan moved to tumen river and became mongolian minggans.In 1392 AD,General Yi Seong-gye founded the Chosun dynasty,Yi Seong-gye himself known as Taejo(great ancestor) of Joseon by his descendants
Interesting,we find a cluster of people with the surname Lee,this cluster is the largest one of Lee clan,share recent ancestry
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And we find one person claim to be member of Jeonju Lee clan's haplotype exact match with the cluster
http://www.ysearch.org/alphalist_view.asp?uid=&letter=L&lastname=Lee&viewuid=S9XWS&p=0
Posted Image
In a forensic site,we find many people belong to the cluster
http://forensic.yonsei.ac.kr/Korean-Y-STRs.xls
Posted Image
http://yayul.egloos.com/2902477
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black man
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Thanks, sahaliyan, and welcome back.

I guess, the next questions would be about migration movements and surname villages of the Lee clan (if they exist). If they are noblemen, they'll be likely to have (or have had) surname villages, weren't they? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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skywalker
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Doesn't the entire Lee clan claim ancestry from China, a Chinese general? I may be remembering wrong.
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Ebizur
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zen disciple
Feb 19 2012, 02:18:54 AM
Doesn't the entire Lee clan claim ancestry from China, a Chinese general? I may be remembering wrong.
The royal family of Joseon is descended from a man who served the Yuan Dynasty as a regional official, so the family may be considered to be "Chinese" if anyone who ever has worked for a government that has ruled China may be considered to be "Chinese." However, the Yuan Dynasty is, of course, essentially Mongol rather than Chinese, and records place the progenitors of Li Seonggye, the founder of the kingdom of Joseon, in the Hamgyeong region of northeastern Korea on the coast of the Sea of Japan, so the idea of a Chinese origin seems a bit farfetched. On the other hand, there is a serious academic theory that the Li clan in question is originally of Jurchen (i.e. proto-Manchu) ancestry.
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skywalker
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I may have gotten it mixed up with the Roh clan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roh_Moo-hyun.

Anyway, the fact that the Lee clan is O3-M134 is quite telling of their ultimate patrilineal origins, either from a Tibeto-Burman element that got mixed up into the steppe peoples or from China.
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sahaliyan
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zen disciple
Feb 19 2012, 10:59:21 PM
I may have gotten it mixed up with the Roh clan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roh_Moo-hyun.

Anyway, the fact that the Lee clan is O3-M134 is quite telling of their ultimate patrilineal origins, either from a Tibeto-Burman element that got mixed up into the steppe peoples or from China.
I don't think so,M134 is too old to be Tibeto-Burman or Chinese,even M117 is too old,claim this like claim all C3 is of Mongolian origin,all R1a1 is of European origin,just foolish.In fact,the frequacy of M134+,M117- is higher in Koreans than many Tibeto-Burman population(for example,the Tibetans,most Tibetan O3s are M117,M134* is rare).I think the expansion of M134 is ealier than any nations formed,so it's not nesessary to link the Yi family to Chinese
Edited by sahaliyan, Feb 20 2012, 12:05:39 AM.
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skywalker
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sahaliyan
Feb 19 2012, 11:39:47 PM
I don't think so,M134 is too old to be Tibeto-Burman or Chinese,even M117 is too old
What is your evidence for the age of M134? It is probably STR evidence, but please elaborate what study and provide the data. STR is very unreliable. Depending on the set of markers, the amount of samples, and the formula used, the age can vary by tens of thousands of years.

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claim this like claim all C3 is of Mongolian origin

C3 and M134 are on phylogenetically different levels. C3 is equivalent to K, whereas M134 distribution is limited to Sino-Tibetan speakers and those it comes in contact with.

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all R1a1 is of European origin

R1a1 pretty much corresponds to Indo-European (the language family) expansion.

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In fact,the frequacy of M134+,M117- is higher in Koreans than many Tibeto-Burman population(for example,the Tibetans,most Tibetan O3s are M117,M134* is rare).

Tibetans probably suffer from a founder effect. In any case, the non-Chinese Sino-Tibetan elements that seep into the steppe nomads should start with Neolithic cultures north of Shanxi,, so they are not technically Tibeto-Burman, just Sino-Tibetan, so they don't have to M134 that is positive for M117. Even historically, a good proportion of Korean ancestry can be traced to Chinese colonization or migration.
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sahaliyan
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zen disciple
Feb 21 2012, 02:21:31 AM
sahaliyan
Feb 19 2012, 11:39:47 PM
I don't think so,M134 is too old to be Tibeto-Burman or Chinese,even M117 is too old
What is your evidence for the age of M134? It is probably STR evidence, but please elaborate what study and provide the data. STR is very unreliable. Depending on the set of markers, the amount of samples, and the formula used, the age can vary by tens of thousands of years.

Quote:
 
claim this like claim all C3 is of Mongolian origin

C3 and M134 are on phylogenetically different levels. C3 is equivalent to K, whereas M134 distribution is limited to Sino-Tibetan speakers and those it comes in contact with.

Quote:
 
all R1a1 is of European origin

R1a1 pretty much corresponds to Indo-European (the language family) expansion.

Quote:
 
In fact,the frequacy of M134+,M117- is higher in Koreans than many Tibeto-Burman population(for example,the Tibetans,most Tibetan O3s are M117,M134* is rare).

Tibetans probably suffer from a founder effect. In any case, the non-Chinese Sino-Tibetan elements that seep into the steppe nomads should start with Neolithic cultures north of Shanxi,, so they are not technically Tibeto-Burman, just Sino-Tibetan, so they don't have to M134 that is positive for M117. Even historically, a good proportion of Korean ancestry can be traced to Chinese colonization or migration.
Maybe STR is very unreliable,but if the STR value is so different,the age can't be young,in every study,the age of M134 is older than 10000 years(the Shi et al data even gave more older age),and no language families can be older than 10000 years.
C3 is not too old,we don't know when the mutation M217 happened,and we don't know if there are SNPs in the upstream of M217,downstream of M130.And M134 distribution is not limited to Sino-Tibetan speakers and those it comes in contact with,based on your logic,I can say the C3 distribution is not limited to Altaic speakers and those it comes in contact with,but that doesn't make sense,and one thing all M134+,M117- is positive for one SNP,but this SNP is negative for M117,you know what I mean here,that means all M117 splited first from the M134,and others share a common male ancestor.If fact M134+,M117- distribution in Tibeto-Burman population is limited,no high in southern Chinese either,in Yan et al 2011 data,M134+,M117- is 14.7% in northern Chinese,but 6.2% in southern Chinese.In Nonaka 2007 data,M134+,M117- is 7.1% (M117+ is 21.9%) for Taiwannese,while M134+,M117- is 14.7% for Koreans in their data.In Dulik et al 2011 data,M134+,M117- is 26.1% of Altaian Kazakhs,can they considered as Sino-Tibetan?Surely No.
As for Chinese colonization or migration to Korea,of course that exist,but then again,the northern Altaic conquest of China also exist,many Chinese also can traced their roots to those invaders,do you agree?
Is M117 Sino-Tibetan?I also dout it,maybe some M117 link to Sino-Tibetan population,but not all M117,I still think some M117 has nothing to do with the Sino-Tibetan population
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black man
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sahaliyan
Feb 21 2012, 03:26:17 AM
Maybe STR is very unreliable,but if the STR value is so different,the age can't be young,in every study,the age of M134 is older than 10000 years(the Shi et al data even gave more older age),and no language families can be older than 10000 years.
C3 is not too old,we don't know when the mutation M217 happened,and we don't know if there are SNPs in the upstream of M217,downstream of M130.And M134 distribution is not limited to Sino-Tibetan speakers and those it comes in contact with,based on your logic,I can say the C3 distribution is not limited to Altaic speakers and those it comes in contact with,but that doesn't make sense,and one thing all M134+,M117- is positive for one SNP,but this SNP is negative for M117,you know what I mean here,that means all M117 splited first from the M134,and others share a common male ancestor.If fact M134+,M117- distribution in Tibeto-Burman population is limited,no high in southern Chinese either,in Yan et al 2011 data,M134+,M117- is 14.7% in northern Chinese,but 6.2% in southern Chinese.In Nonaka 2007 data,M134+,M117- is 7.1% (M117+ is 21.9%) for Taiwannese,while M134+,M117- is 14.7% for Koreans in their data.In Dulik et al 2011 data,M134+,M117- is 26.1% of Altaian Kazakhs,can they considered as Sino-Tibetan?Surely No.
As for Chinese colonization or migration to Korea,of course that exist,but then again,the northern Altaic conquest of China also exist,many Chinese also can traced their roots to those invaders,do you agree?
Is M117 Sino-Tibetan?I also dout it,maybe some M117 link to Sino-Tibetan population,but not all M117,I still think some M117 has nothing to do with the Sino-Tibetan population
Researchers could sure find out clan and tribal names if they asked Mongols and Turks. That's what they should write more about in the future. Also, traditional occupational groups at certain locations might give hints of their foreign or non-foreign ancestry.

Samodians and Yeniseians managed to leave traces among Turkic groups. So it shouldn't have been a problem to do so for Sino-Tibetans as well. The absence of Sino-Tibetan such cultural and linguistic relics obviously indicates that they didn't contribute much to the gene pools of South Siberians, either.

Same for Korea, I think. If there was Han immigration to Korea, it must have left more traces in some locations than in others. But according to the findings of Kim Soon-hee et al., the y hg distribution in South Korea is rather homogeneous (with Cheju-do perhaps deviating because of island isolation).
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skywalker
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How much variance in STR means it's old? This is a subjective opinion that is different from person to person. This is an argument very popular in Chinese language discourse but what is the object criteria for how much variance means how old a lineage is?<br /><br />
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C3 is not too old
<br />It is old enough to make it to the Americas while NO didn't.<br /><br />
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And M134 distribution is not limited to Sino-Tibetan speakers and those it comes in contact with, based on your logic,I can say the C3 distribution is not limited to Altaic speakers and those it comes in contact with
<br />Can you give examples of where M134 in non-ST peoples can't be explained as contact? With C3, it shows in Native Americans.<br />Your Altaian Kazakh example is not good enough. For why, see http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/topic/8802182/.<br /><br />
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As for Chinese colonization or migration to Korea,of course that exist,but then again,the northern Altaic conquest of China also exist,many Chinese also can traced their roots to those invaders,do you agree?

Yes, but what does this have to do with M134?
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sahaliyan
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The origin of Naiman M134+,M117- is unclear,maybe it's of Khitan origin,but the Khitans are Mongolic people,not Sibo-Tibetan.
And here is one Turkish O,also M134+,M117-
http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=AV9HT&viewuid=5BY5D&p=0
The origin of this branch(M134+,M117-) is still unclear,I don't think this branch has anything to do with the Sino-Tibetan speaking peoples,maybe some M117+ are,but M134+,M117- is different case
And Q also reached America,so do you think Q is older than NO?
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Ebizur
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sahaliyan
Feb 23 2012, 04:12:34 AM
The origin of this branch(M134+,M117-) is still unclear,I don't think this branch has anything to do with the Sino-Tibetan speaking peoples,maybe some M117+ are,but M134+,M117- is different case
And Q also reached America,so do you think Q is older than NO?
As I recall, O3-M134+/M117- Y-DNA has been found in a sample of Burushos alongside some rather unusual examples of C3-M217(xC3c-M48). The nearest neighbors of the Burusho haplogroup C individuals in the median joining network of Zerjal et al. 2003 are mainly Koreans. Who might have brought O3-M134+/M117- and C3-M217(xC3c-M48) Y-DNA into the Burusho gene pool?
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black man
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JCA
Feb 23 2012, 08:43:07 AM
sahaliyan
Feb 23 2012, 04:12:34 AM
The origin of this branch(M134+,M117-) is still unclear,I don't think this branch has anything to do with the Sino-Tibetan speaking peoples,maybe some M117+ are,but M134+,M117- is different case
And Q also reached America,so do you think Q is older than NO?
As I recall, O3-M134+/M117- Y-DNA has been found in a sample of Burushos alongside some rather unusual examples of C3-M217(xC3c-M48). The nearest neighbors of the Burusho haplogroup C individuals in the median joining network of Zerjal et al. 2003 are mainly Koreans. Who might have brought O3-M134+/M117- and C3-M217(xC3c-M48) Y-DNA into the Burusho gene pool?
Zerjal et al. reconstructed a network in which several Burusho males were at a distance of two mutations from one Korean. One more Burusho was one step from a Korean, one step from a Manchu and two steps from an Evenk, a Dagur and a Kyrgyz (each of them having a different haplotype). Could indeed be interesting for someone who knows about migrations from Dongbei to Xinjiang. Could the Manchus have organised such a relocation?

Sorry for being off-topic.

addendum: the Burusho populations are at least partly close to trade routes once perhaps used by East Asians, too.
Edited by black man, Feb 24 2012, 01:33:18 AM.
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skywalker
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@JCA & black man
I'd still have to attribute this to the Khitan at this point. They ruled over Bohai and once their remnants in Kara-Khitai were absorbed into Merkeits, Naiman, Uighurs, and Mongols, they joined the horde that swept into Irano-Afghan region and beyond. This would also explain the pre-C3c C3s (before Mongols) that the Khitans had.

But then this same signature would show up in Chinese, so did the studies not include Chinese/
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luxemen
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I found this quoted in many Korean blogs. Will verify the source once I can find it.

Posted Image
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luxemen
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Nurizone
Jun 13 2018, 02:36:30 PM
I found this quoted in many Korean blogs. Will verify the source once I can find it.

Posted Image
According to this pie chart,

M117 was found in 9.7% of the sample
M134 was found in 20.6% of the sample
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luxemen
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Addendum:

The source seems to be this:
Shin et al. 2012 <Understanding the Y chromosome variation in Korea- relevance of combined haplogroup and haplotype analyses
(Yonsei University)

Apparently these pie charts were created by Yonsei University scholars. I'll be sure to include the original source (they're probably published in a journal but with different formats).

There are a bunch of these by other common Korean surnames, such as "Park" and "Kim".

Here's the same chart for "Park", just as a point of comparison:

Posted Image


And just a general pie chart of random Korean males (not separated by surname):
Posted Image
Edited by luxemen, Jun 13 2018, 03:19:53 PM.
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