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Andronovo culture
Topic Started: Jan 4 2008, 06:55:34 AM (568 Views)
manju
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doubter
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I came across the post at Indo-Eurasian_research Yahoo group.
Quote:
 
3. First, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the
"Andronovo" people were Indo-Iranians (I.M.H.O.). This comes out of
all the proto-Zoroastrian and Indo-Aryan chariot nonsense surrounding
the Sintashta-Arkhaim-Petrovka culture, and is entirely inaccurate.

the S-A-P sites dont even contain "Andronovo" material culture,
although arguably they're related (probably by trade/exchange and
intermarriage between the semi-nomadic S-A-P peoples and the fully-
nomadic "Andronovo" peoples). Second, as Michael Frachetti has so
cogently argued, the "Andronovo" phenomenon is a case of Soviet
lumpers winning out over Soviet splitters -- ie, there are a plethora
of sites from Siberia to the Pontic Steppe that demonstrate similar
material culture in the 2nd millennium BCE (cf. Borodino hoard), but
to call them all "Andronovo" is misleading and homogenizes a complex
cultural landscape. It's like the Romans calling every barbarian a
"Celt" to signify "The Other", except with the term "Andronovo" we're
not even contemporaries... we're projecting back 4000 years! Michael
once joked to me that the term "Andronovo" translates from Russian
into English as "those nomads".

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Indo-Eurasia...ch/message/8939


If I remember correctly Finno-Ugric languages have Indo-Iranian words. This I believe can be interpreted as Indo-Iranian(who did not have self-designation "Aryans" as in the case of Vedic Indians and Iranians in west Asia and Caucasus) population south of Urals. But I am not sure if contact is around 2500BCE -1500BCE or after 1500 BCE (Scythian expansion). Any thoughts?
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black man
The Right Hand
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As previously mentioned in this forum (use the search engine in order to find it), Bouakaze et al. predicted that (some of) the bearers of Andronovo culture in the Altai region were light-pigmented. In Одонтологическая характеристика населения андроновской культуры Алтая Tur narrows it down to people odontologically similar to modern Turkish and Greeks in Bulgaria. (I didn't read the complete paper. So I'm not 100% sure. But at least Tur refers to an Andronovo sample from the Altai region, too.) In two two-dimensional diagrams (figures 2b and 3) taking account of 10 dental traits this cluster is confirmed. "Indians" and Andronovans of what is now Turkmenistan are in both cases relatively close to it.

Among the 6 Altai Andronovo males whose patrilineages were classified by Bouakaze et al. in 2007 five carried M17 and one was identified as M216+,M217-.

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Any closer affinity with the IE-speakers of Thrace and Dacia imaginable?
Edited by black man, Jun 3 2010, 05:34:55 PM.
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ren
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The skulls from these Bronze Age "Indo-European" cultures in SW Siberia are usually described as "robust Europoid", atleast what I've encountered. The faces are usually very broad, and if it wasn't for cranioscopic traits, they look quite similar to Siberian "Mongoloids". In my opinion, Spencer Wells or Conan O'Brien are a good examples of approximate "robust Europoid" type, which seems to be describing pre-Neolithic Cro-Magnon-like features.

"Robust Europoid" would look very different from Thracians and Dacian, if we assume these are Med in facial morphology.
Edited by ren, Jan 20 2011, 02:20:07 PM.
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black man
The Right Hand
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ren
Jan 12 2010, 05:27:15 AM
The skulls from these Bronze Age "Indo-European" cultures in SW Siberia are usually described as "robust Europoid", atleast what I've encountered. The faces are usually very broad, and if it wasn't for cranioscopic traits, they look quite similar to Siberian "Mongoloids". In my opinion, Spencer Wells or Conan O'Brien are a good examples of approximate "robust Europoid" type, which seems to be describing pre-Neolithic Cro-Magnon-like features.

"Robust Europoid" would look very different from Thracians and Dacian, if we assume these are Med in facial morphology.


Dacia and Thrace were AFAIK rather associated with the Caucasus (where there are broad-faced populations till today) and the steppe zone to the north of it than with Arabs or even North Africans. I'll have to admit that I never cared much about the physical anthropology of that region though. Thus, I cannot back up with statistics right now. At our forum we so far only had Starbuck's picture collection: http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/topic/8622687/1
Edited by black man, Jan 20 2011, 10:02:25 PM.
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