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Koguryo ancestry in Han Chinese
Topic Started: May 23 2009, 05:00:16 AM (998 Views)
ren
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I bumped across an interesting post on ethnic Koguryo being moved enmass into China proper, which raises the possibility that O2b and Korean-looking Han are actually indeed from the Korean peninsula and Manchuria.

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Of the total population in Koguryo, around 150,000 households(near 800,000 people) belonged to the Koguryo ethnic group. According to Jiu Tang Shu, 28,200 households(Zi zhi tongjian mentions 38,200, a possible misread of Jiu Tang Shu) were moved to the Jiang Huai region of China in 669. In 677, more were moved to all parts of the central plains, including Beijing, Henan, Anhui, Jiangsu, Hubei, Shangxi, Shanxi, Gansu, sichuan. According to the estimate of Ma Da Zheng etc., there were roughly a total of 230,000-280,000 Koguryo people that were located to the central plains; about 1/3-1/2 of the entire Koguryo population. Only less than 100,000 Koguryo people escaped, captured, or remained in what is now Korean territory. The remainder stayed or fled to various other places, including southern Manchuria, and the Tujue. In another word over 7/8 of what was originally the Koguryo ethnic group lived in today's China while only less than 1/8 lived in today's Korea. Hence the vast majority of Koguryo people's descendant lived in modern China, not in Korea.The Han Chinese population of Koguryo largely remained behind, and throughout the centuries, more Han Chinese immigrated there, So the Han Chinese ancestry for modern Koreans is most likely larger than the Koguryo component, and at least as large as the ancient Chosun component.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=18863&view=findpost&p=4974362
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Ebizur
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ren
May 23 2009, 05:00:16 AM
I bumped across an interesting post on ethnic Koguryo being moved enmass into China proper, which raises the possibility that O2b and Korean-looking Han are actually indeed from the Korean peninsula and Manchuria.
Do you mean haplogroup O2*(xO2a, O2b)? I have never seen haplogroup O2b reported in a sample of Han Chinese except the "Beijing-Han" sample (4/69 = 5.8% O2b-SRY465(xO2b1-47z)) of Han-Jun Jin, Kyoung-Don Kwak, Michael F. Hammer et al., "Y-chromosomal DNA haplogroups and their implications for the dual origins of the Koreans," Human Genetics (2003) 114 : 27–35. However, haplogroup O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465) has been reported quite frequently in samples from China:

Hammer et al. (2005), O2*-P31
Yao: 12/60 = 20.0%
Taiwan (non-aboriginal): 6/84 = 7.1%
Manchu: 3/52 = 5.8%
Manchurian Evenk: 2/41 = 4.9%
Northern Han: 2/44 = 4.5%
Oroqen: 1/22 = 4.5%
Tujia: 2/49 = 4.1%
Korea: 2/75 = 2.7%
Yizu: 1/43 = 2.3%
Vietnam: 1/70 = 1.4%
Mongolia: 2/149 = 1.3%

Xue et al. (2006), O2*-P31
Yao/Bama: 13/35 = 37.1%
Han/Meixian: 5/35 = 14.3%
Han/Yili: 3/32 = 9.4%
Han/Harbin: 3/35 = 8.6%
Manchu: 3/35 = 8.6%
Oroqen: 2/31 = 6.5%
Korean/China: 1/25 = 4.0%
Qiang: 1/33 = 3.0%
Han/Chengdu: 1/34 = 2.9%
Li: 1/34 = 2.9%
Hui: 1/35 = 2.9%
Daur: 1/39 = 2.6%
Korean/(South) Korea: 1/43 = 2.3%
Hezhe: 1/45 = 2.2%
Inner Mongolian: 1/45 = 2.2%
Outer Mongolian: 1/65 = 1.5%
Ewenki: 0/26
Han/Lanzhou: 0/30
Uygur/Urumqi: 0/31
Hani: 0/34
She: 0/34
Buyi: 0/35
Tibetans: 0/35
Yao/Liannan: 0/35
Uygur/Yili: 0/39
Xibe: 0/41
Japanese: 0/47

Furthermore, I don't see why haplogroup O2*-P31 or haplogroup O2b-SRY465 should have anything to do with "Korean-looking Han." Y-DNA is supposed to be inherited independently of genes that control for somatic characters that might make someone "look Korean," but if any Y-DNA haplogroup might have been associated originally with "Korean-looking people" or people whose genes have affected some populations so that their descendants have turned out "looking sort of Korean," it is more likely to have been C3-M217 than any form of haplogroup O2 (or O-M175 in general, for that matter).

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ren
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[/quote]
Quote:
 
Do you mean haplogroup O2*(xO2a, O2b)?

No, I meant O2b, but now that you've scrutinized my point, I sort of meant any haplogroup in Han that can be better explained as something mixing in from the Korean peninsula and Manchuria, such as C3.

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Furthermore, I don't see why haplogroup O2*-P31 or haplogroup O2b-SRY465 should have anything to do with "Korean-looking Han."

Yes, "Korean" lineages and somatotypes could in theory exist independently of each other as parallel indicators of Koguryo ancestry.

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but if any Y-DNA haplogroup might have been associated originally with "Korean-looking people" or people whose genes have affected some populations so that their descendants have turned out "looking sort of Korean," it is more likely to have been C3-M217 than any form of haplogroup O2 (or O-M175 in general, for that matter).

Good point. My own view now is that "Japanese"-looking people inhabited the coastal parts of the peninsula prior to a later absorption of inland types.
Edited by ren, May 24 2009, 01:02:10 AM.
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cydevil
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ren
May 23 2009, 05:00:16 AM
I bumped across an interesting post on ethnic Koguryo being moved enmass into China proper, which raises the possibility that O2b and Korean-looking Han are actually indeed from the Korean peninsula and Manchuria.

Quote:
 
Of the total population in Koguryo, around 150,000 households(near 800,000 people) belonged to the Koguryo ethnic group. According to Jiu Tang Shu, 28,200 households(Zi zhi tongjian mentions 38,200, a possible misread of Jiu Tang Shu) were moved to the Jiang Huai region of China in 669. In 677, more were moved to all parts of the central plains, including Beijing, Henan, Anhui, Jiangsu, Hubei, Shangxi, Shanxi, Gansu, sichuan. According to the estimate of Ma Da Zheng etc., there were roughly a total of 230,000-280,000 Koguryo people that were located to the central plains; about 1/3-1/2 of the entire Koguryo population. Only less than 100,000 Koguryo people escaped, captured, or remained in what is now Korean territory. The remainder stayed or fled to various other places, including southern Manchuria, and the Tujue. In another word over 7/8 of what was originally the Koguryo ethnic group lived in today's China while only less than 1/8 lived in today's Korea. Hence the vast majority of Koguryo people's descendant lived in modern China, not in Korea.The Han Chinese population of Koguryo largely remained behind, and throughout the centuries, more Han Chinese immigrated there, So the Han Chinese ancestry for modern Koreans is most likely larger than the Koguryo component, and at least as large as the ancient Chosun component.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=18863&view=findpost&p=4974362
This is purely a Chinese point of view, aka the Northeast Project. Ma Dazeng was one of the people who lead the project.

The 150,000 figure is based on the assumption that majority of people in the Koguryo kingdom at the time of its fall were Han Chinese. The is assumption is based on pure speculation and ouright distortions of history.

Here are some corrections.

First, the total population of Koguryo was recorded to be 690,000 households. Borjigin claims half of Koguryo were Han Chinese. On the contrary, others interpret the text differently - that half of Sui Dynasty prisoners married local women and stayed. I mean, this is just common sense. What's the possibility of war prisoners of a defeated army making up half of the victorious kingdom's population? Besides, this is based on personal observations made by a Chinese diplomat.

Second, Borigin fails to mention what happened after the prisoners were taken to mainland China. What happened was that they were all moved back to Liaodong. Then after a failed rebellion in league with the Mohe, some of them were relocated to today's Henan and Qinghai provinces. The rest, the weak and the poor who are unlikely to be able to stage another rebellion, stayed. Even after the establishment of Balhae, many Koguryo people settled down in Shilla instead. And of course, there was another massive southward migration from Manchuria upon the establishment of Koryo and the fall of Balhae.


As for the presense of O2b1 in Beijing, I see two possible explanations. First possibility is that he is the descendent of the indigenous people of Beijing, whose culture was closely related to Manchuria and Korea. Second possibility is that he is the descendent of the Manchus or some other group of people from Manchuria in historical times.
Edited by cydevil, Jun 26 2009, 02:59:11 PM.
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black man
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Thanks for the clarification, cydevil.

------------

Btw, the frequencies of hg O2b are only 1% (4/391) Lu's Nanjing sample (2008) and 0% (n=44) in Hammer's Shanxi or Shaanxi sample (2005).
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Ebizur
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black man
Jun 28 2009, 02:58:51 AM
Btw, the frequencies of hg O2b are only 1% (4/391) Lu's Nanjing sample (2008) and 0% (n=44) in Hammer's Shanxi or Shaanxi sample (2005).
What do you mean by "Lu's Nanjing sample (2008)"? Might you have intended to refer to a sample that has been reported in Chuncheng Lu, Feng Zhang, Yankai Xia et al., "The association of Y chromosome haplogroups with spermatogenic failure in the Han Chinese," Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 52, 659–663?

Also, may I ask how you have obtained this information regarding the location of origin of the "Northern Han" sample of Hammer et al. (2005)?
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black man
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JCA
Jun 28 2009, 06:18:27 PM
black man
Jun 28 2009, 02:58:51 AM
Btw, the frequencies of hg O2b are only 1% (4/391) Lu's Nanjing sample (2008) and 0% (n=44) in Hammer's Shanxi or Shaanxi sample (2005).
What do you mean by "Lu's Nanjing sample (2008)"? Might you have intended to refer to a sample that has been reported in Chuncheng Lu, Feng Zhang, Yankai Xia et al., "The association of Y chromosome haplogroups with spermatogenic failure in the Han Chinese," Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 52, 659–663?
Same authors but different paper: "The b2/b3 subdeletion shows higher risk of spermatogenic failure and higher frequency of complete AZFc deletion than the gr/gr subdeletion in a Chinese population"

Quote:
 
Also, may I ask how you have obtained this information regarding the location of origin of the "Northern Han" sample of Hammer et al. (2005)?


It's the same sample as in Karafet 2001: "Paternal Population History of East Asia: Sources, Patterns, and Microevolutionary Processes"
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Ebizur
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black man
Jun 28 2009, 11:48:25 PM
JCA
Jun 28 2009, 06:18:27 PM
black man
Jun 28 2009, 02:58:51 AM
Btw, the frequencies of hg O2b are only 1% (4/391) Lu's Nanjing sample (2008) and 0% (n=44) in Hammer's Shanxi or Shaanxi sample (2005).
What do you mean by "Lu's Nanjing sample (2008)"? Might you have intended to refer to a sample that has been reported in Chuncheng Lu, Feng Zhang, Yankai Xia et al., "The association of Y chromosome haplogroups with spermatogenic failure in the Han Chinese," Journal of Human Genetics (2007) 52, 659¨C663?
Same authors but different paper: "The b2/b3 subdeletion shows higher risk of spermatogenic failure and higher frequency of complete AZFc deletion than the gr/gr subdeletion in a Chinese population"

Quote:
 
Also, may I ask how you have obtained this information regarding the location of origin of the "Northern Han" sample of Hammer et al. (2005)?


It's the same sample as in Karafet 2001: "Paternal Population History of East Asia: Sources, Patterns, and Microevolutionary Processes"
Thanks for the sources, black man. I wonder if Lu et al. have not used any of the same samples for both these papers. Do you have access?

As for the location of origin of the "Northern Han" sample of Karafet et al. (2001)/Hammer et al. (2005), the text of Karafet (2001) suggests that the sample has been obtained in ÉÂÎ÷Ê¡ Shaanxi (cf. "northern Han (Shaanxi)," p. 618), but the dot for this study's Population #1 ("Northern Han") on the map in Figure 1 seems to have been placed somewhere in ɽÎ÷Ê¡ Shanxi.
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black man
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Jun 29 2009, 04:07:35 PM
Thanks for the sources, black man. I wonder if Lu et al. have not used any of the same samples for both these papers. Do you have access?

As for the location of origin of the "Northern Han" sample of Karafet et al. (2001)/Hammer et al. (2005), the text of Karafet (2001) suggests that the sample has been obtained in ÉÂÎ÷Ê¡ Shaanxi (cf. "northern Han (Shaanxi)," p. 618), but the dot for this study's Population #1 ("Northern Han") on the map in Figure 1 seems to have been placed somewhere in ɽÎ÷Ê¡ Shanxi.
http://s6.zetaboards.com/man/topic/8517327/10/?x=0#post8007137
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Ebizur
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As in previously published studies of Han Y-DNA variation, this control sample of normal/fertile Han males from East China (sampled in Jiangsu) is dominated by derivatives of O3-M122, which comprise somewhat more than half of the total (222/391 = 56.8% O3-M122 total, including 100/391 = 25.6% O3*-M122(xO3a3c-M134), 68/391 = 17.4% O3a3c1-M117, and 54/391 = 13.8% O3a3c*-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)). The only other major components (~10%+) of this sample are haplogroup O1a-M119 (66/391 = 16.9%) and haplogroup C-M130 (39/391 = 10.0%). I find it interesting that haplogroups O1a-M119 and C-M130 should occur so frequently in the vicinity of Nanjing, which is quite far north to exhibit such a high frequency of O1a-M119 and quite far south to exhibit such a high frequency of C-M130 (which, judging from the results of other studies, all should belong to C3(xC3c)) in Asia.

O3-M122, O1a-M119, and C-M130 together account for nearly 84% of the total control sample (327/391), and three other haplogroups account for most of the balance: N1-LLY22g (16/391 = 4.1%), Q1a1-M120 (13/391 = 3.3%), and O2*-M268(xO2a-M95, O2b-M176) (13/391 = 3.3%). Combined with O2a-M95 (8/391 = 2.0%) and O2b-M176 (4/391 = 1.0%), the total frequency of O2-M268 in this control sample is 25/391 = 6.4%.

Among the less frequent haplogroups, the most interesting to me is Q1a1-M120, which the authors have reported finding in 13/391 = 3.3% of the fertile/normozoospermia sample and 35/756 = 4.6% of the pooled sample of infertility patients. These data suggest that the frequency of haplogroup Q1a1-M120 in the Nanjing area, which is located on the Yangtze River and almost always is considered to be part of Southern China (the name of the city does mean "southern capital," after all), might not be significantly less than the frequency of Q1a1-M120 in Northern China, which is about 4% on average.
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