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Ugrian back migration?
Topic Started: May 29 2008, 11:33:03 AM (3,798 Views)
black man
The Right Hand
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new contents:

Preliminary remark: I'll first of all note that I'm not interested in speculating about "Tokharian" curiosities. "Tokharian" topics would anyway be more related to topics concerning the Tarim Basin. Moreover, the ancient light-pigmented R1a specimens found at some South Siberian locations seem to have been outliers who didn't leave many descendants behind there. So I'll ignore them, too...

I forgot where I read this (one of those papers on y hg N or an archaeological paper perhaps?). Anyway, as far as I remember, there is a theory according to which Ugrians migrated to the Altai mountains having arrived from eastern Europe. The latter idea would explain quite a lot concerning genetic makeups and phenotypes in a region stretching from the Altai mountains to Afghanistan at least. As the bars in figure S1 of the paper by Grugni et al. from 2013 confirm, there seems to be eastern European admixture in Altaians, Afghanistanis and people geographically in between them. Furthermore, light pigmentation can occasionally be observed in all of these populations. And last but not least, Russian geneticists considered quite a lot of minor Western hgs in Turkic-speakers to be from Europe some time ago. (South Siberians and Kyrgyz, as far as I remember.)

Now, some people in the Altai mountains were suggested to have Ugrian ancestry for ethno-cultural and linguistic reasons. On p. vii in their introduction to "Exploring the eastern frontiers of Turkic" Erdal and Nevskaya refer to the Shorians as such a population. But they don't mention which of the 17 Shorian sook ("clans") are most likely to have Ugrian patrilineal ancestry. Like most people in the Altai mountains, the majority of the Shorians seems to belong to y hg R1a. And their hts as well as those of Turkic-speakers to the south of them are probably especially close to Indian ones according to supplementary figure 2 of Underhill et al. 2014.

AFAIK, there is so far only one attested Shorian present in tables featuring information about y hg N-M178+ samples. He seems to be in the same cluster as 8 Khakass and 2 Tuvans within a network constructed by Derenko et al. 2007 (though apparently mistakenly labelled "St" in the figure), this cluster possibly splitting away from a Khanty ht (Kharkov 2012, text on p. figure 5). That said, note that Kharkov et al. suppose that a significant amount of their Khakass M178+ has Shorian ancestry (Kharkov et al. 2011, p. 408).

Sources:
Derenko et al. 2007: "Y-chromosome haplogroup N dispersals from south Siberia to Europe"; doi: 10.1007/s10038-007-0179-5
Di Cristofaro et al. 2013: "Afghan Hindu Kush"; doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748
Erdal and Nevskaya 2006: "Exploring the Eastern Frontiers of Turkic"
Kharkov et al. 2011: "Genetic Diversity of the Khakass Gene Pool"; doi: 10.1134/S0026893311020117
Kharkov 2012: "Структура и филогеография генофонда коренного населения Сибири по маркерам хромосомы"
Underhill et al. 2014: "The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a"; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2014.50




old post on y hg profiles:

According to Supplementary Table 2 of Northwest Siberian Khanty and Mansi in the junction of West and East Eurasian gene pools as revealed by uniparental markers by Pimenoff et al. the y-chromosomal markers in Ugrian samples are distributed as follows:

Khants (n=28):
hg G: 1
hg N2-"Asian motif": 6
hg N2-"European motif": 1
hg N3-M178: 18
hg R1a1: 2

Mansi (n=25):
hg I: 2
hg J: 1
hg N2-"Asian motif": 9
hg N2-"European motif": 6
hg N3-M178: 4
hg R1a1: 2
hg R1b: 1

A similar hg distribution was found in Karafet's sample of 47 Khanty samples (in table of Tambets et al. 2004). Hg C in Khants (as indicated in a figure in Stepanov's "Evolution and phylogeography of human y-chromosomal lineages" 2006) is not confirmed by this table.
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