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Origins of the Min group...
Topic Started: Feb 9 2008, 11:01:18 AM (544 Views)
ren
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According to page 7 of PDF, Synchrony and Diachrony of Sinitic Languages, Norman (1988) postulated that Min has a possible Austro-Asiatic sub-stratum. Prior to Han conquest, Fujian was the Min Yue kingdom, a political descendent of the Yue kingdom in Zhejiang further north before Chu conquered it. The inhabitants of Fujian were probably made up of various ethnic groups, with a political elite possibly from Yue in Zhejiang. However, after Han conquest, much or most if not all of the inhabitants were supposedly relocated to northern China.

The Min group of languages themselves appear to form a main trunk of Sinitic with Wu languages further north. This is supported by historical records that show the over-whelming majority of Han in Fujian came from the Wu region further north, in the 7th century CE, during the Tang dynasty. This is supported by the fact that Hoklos refer to themselves as people of the Tang, wheras northerners refer themselves as the people of the Han. Linguistically, Min seems to preserve the archaic features of Wu spoken around that time, while the new Wu dialects/languages have been under heavy influence from northern immigration. This dialect was in Han times called the Jiangdong (Eastern Yangtze) dialect. Sinitic people, it seems, can be divided into 2 or 3 major trunks, one is Jiangdongese (Min and Wu speakers), the other is Northerners (Cantonese, Hakka, Gan, Mandarin) deriving from the speech of the northern central region. Jin in Shanxi and Xiang in Hunan might be 3rd or 4th trunks.

"There is general agreement that proto-Wu is the likely basis for the development of Min", p. 14 of PDF
This is supported by You (1992), who postulates that Min preserves the most archaic of Wu features, citing lexical and phomological features in Southern Wu, before Wu was heavily influenced by northern migrations. [p. 14]
Sagart also proposes this.
Ting agrees that Min is derived fromt the Wu region, although new Wu might be northern with an "Old Wu"/Min stratum. [p.14]
Norman agree that Min is derived from the Wu region, but suggests that the region might not have been so different linguistically from the standard koine of that time. [p.14]

Historical records support this.
There seems to have been a small scale in-land migration to Fujian from Jiangxi and Zhejiang in the 3rd century CE, followed by a swamping in the 7th century from Zhejiang, when the census showed 91,000 households in 742 CE as compared to between 12,000-13,000 households in the 609 CE census. [p. 13, Chappelle]

Some of the common innovations shared by Wu and Min, which implies common descent:

the character "nong" (pronounced in Mandarin), which only means "man" in the Min and Wu languages, while other Chinese use "ren".
"We may illustrate with two cases of semantic change in Chinese. One is the
word nong, which has changed from the 1ps pronoun 'I' to the 2ps pronoun
'you' in the Wu dialects."
p. 7 Studies on Chinese Historical Syntax and Morphology

the 3rd-person pronoun "yi"

phonological,
such as retention of "n" sound for characters that have been lost in other dialects, such as the character for "sun", "fish", "eye"
"ou" sound for characters with "h" or "w" sound in other dialects.
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black man
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ren
Feb 9 2008, 11:01 AM
According to page 7 of PDF, Synchrony and Diachrony of Sinitic Languages, Norman (1988) postulated that Min has a possible Austro-Asiatic sub-stratum. Prior to Han conquest, Fujian was the Min Yue kingdom, a political descendent of the Yue kingdom in Zhejiang further north before Chu conquered it. The inhabitants of Fujian were probably made up of various ethnic groups, with a political elite possibly from Yue in Zhejiang. However, after Han conquest, much or most if not all of the inhabitants were supposedly relocated to northern China.

Which present-day provinces would be "northern" in this context?
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ren
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I can't recall exactly but there seems to have been relocations of the inhabitants of Wu and Yue to Huai region north of the Yangtze (or even Henan), which is still considered "southern" China since it is south of the Huai river. (Chinese consider not the Yangtze but the Huai as the demarcation line.)

Minyue inhabitants seems to have been moved to the same places.

Northward expansiion also took place in the Neolithic with the Liangzhu culture of the Yangtze delta moving northwards into Shandong and Jiangsu north of the Yangtze. It's starting in southern north China that people start to have a southern/central appearance.

Would you mind giving me a clear description of your background? Is it full Hoklo, and by that does it mean Southern Min? Any Austronesian? If you still need privacy (but I think now you are more comfortable), you can PM me.
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black man
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ren
Feb 10 2008, 05:26 AM
I can't recall exactly but there seems to have been relocations of the inhabitants of Wu and Yue to Huai region north of the Yangtze (or even Henan), which is still considered "southern" China since it is south of the Huai river. (Chinese consider not the Yangtze but the Huai as the demarcation line.)

Minyue inhabitants seems to have been moved to the same places.

Northward expansiion also took place in the Neolithic with the Liangzhu culture of the Yangtze delta moving northwards into Shandong and Jiangsu north of the Yangtze. It's starting in southern north China that people start to have a southern/central appearance.

What I noticed in films about Kaifeng (southern Henan) and Jiangsu is the presence of a small-faced type with small chin (neither much prognathism nor big eyes though). This type is a bit different from the more light-skinned, more long-faced but similarly gracilised types of Shaanxi and northern Shanxi.

Quote:
 
Would you mind giving me a clear description of your background? Is it full Hoklo, and by that does it mean Southern Min? Any Austronesian? If you still need privacy (but I think now you are more comfortable), you can PM me.


The clearest word I can find is "taboo". Ancestry is not talked openly about in my family. Actually, the word "Hoklo" was never mentioned by any of my relatives in my presence. (Instead of ethnic origins, my relatives refer to their present locations like in, "I'm in this or that city." Or more directly: "When I [hypothetically] live in America, I become American and do forget what I have been before." In this sense ethnicity is treated like a heritable disease which needs to be overcome.) It was the theory of a friendly acquaintance that we might have Hoklo ancestry. In the case of my family only gene tests would give a concrete insight. The other information I sent via PM to you.
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ren
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The Suzhou dialect of the Northern Wu language seems to preserve the old Zhou-Han "you", just like in Southern Min and Eastern/Fuzhou Min and Puxian Min.

Suzhou "you" alternate written form 1
/alternate written form 2 is actually the same word as the original classical Chinese classical Chinese "you", just like in coastal Min languages.
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ren
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Norman's classification of Wu into a central dialect group closer to Mandarin is very superficially interpreted. The ten diagnostic features he lists on p. 182 of his book are all Mandarin features that's seeped into the the middle/central Chinese dialects via recent migration, and not ancestrally-common historically-rooted features.

Wu is heavily Mandarinized due to migrations into the Wu region, and the Mandarin/later northern element is mixed in with stratum(s) that are even further from Mandarin than the main Cantonese or Hakka stratums.

By completely missing Wu's lower/more basic stratum(s), probably through superficially examination without being well-acquainted with the material, he might be missing something when he says only the Min groups can be considered direct descendants of the Jiangdong dialect.
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ren
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Quote:
 
这样的人,广东话叫‘傻仔’,闽南话叫‘憨仔’,上海话叫‘刚度’,四川话叫‘瓜娃子’,北京以北的叫‘傻X’……英语里大概叫‘fool’

http://bjmsg.focus.cn/msgview/1012/78147727.html

It seems that Wu and Min have common vocab for "fool"...




2009-2-5
http://www.tpps.org.tw/phpbb/files/pdf/10.pdf

2009-7-10
闽语的形成主要是汉人四次移民潮叠加的结果,第一次是汉末东吴人移居闽北闽东;第二次是东晋南迁时辗转入闽;第三次是初唐陈政、陈元光的平定闽西、闽南;第四次是唐末王审知的据闽、治闽。头两次时代久远,批量较小,在闽中分布面也较窄;后两次批量大、分布广、影响更大。

闽粤方言的不同文化特征
Edited by ren, Jul 10 2009, 10:55:14 AM.
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black man
The Right Hand
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ren
Feb 9 2008, 11:01:18 AM
According to page 7 of PDF, Synchrony and Diachrony of Sinitic Languages, Norman (1988) postulated that Min has a possible Austro-Asiatic sub-stratum. Prior to Han conquest, Fujian was the Min Yue kingdom, a political descendent of the Yue kingdom in Zhejiang further north before Chu conquered it. The inhabitants of Fujian were probably made up of various ethnic groups, with a political elite possibly from Yue in Zhejiang. However, after Han conquest, much or most if not all of the inhabitants were supposedly relocated to northern China.
"All" is extremely idealistic considering the means of the administration back then. Just generalising... one reason for which officials who wrote reports and authors of chronicles tended to exaggerate certain "successes" is that hardly anybody could control the extent to which the heroes of their stories achieved their goals. Another reason is that the glorification of heroes and exaggerating their achievements was a potentially important aspect of identity politics among the elites of the past.

The populations most likely to have been affected by relocations probably lived in areas easily accessible, such as river deltas. And these were probably just the stronger coastal clans and their henchmen. By contrast, weak clans living withdrawn in less accessible mountain regions don't seem to have been of any according interest to premodern administrations. Even today the mountaineer populations of Zhejiang, Fujian, Jiangxi and Guangdong (Hakka, Xiamin, Miao, Yao, She) appear to be a more or less separate field of research. Then again, as we know from certain and Bai and Tujia cases, minorities can claim to be Han. And when they're very small (i.e., by far smaller than the Bai and Tujia populations), chances are not bad that their (former) existence is overlooked.

At this point it's noteworthy that certain eastern and southeastern populations still have high percentages of men in y hg O1 especially when northern O1 can turn out to be from relocated southerners:
- Shanghai Jinhui Han: 25/48=52,1% (Li Hui 2004)
- Chaoshan Hakka: 14/32=43,8% (Liu Shuhui et al. 2013)
- Shanghai Maqiao Han: 9/26=34,6% (Li Hui 2004)
- Zhejiang Hangzhou Han: 29/106=27,4% (Wen et al. 2004)
- Fujian Minnan Han: 12/55=21,8% (Trejaut et al. 2014)
- Chaoshan She: 5/24=20,8% (Liu Shuhui et al. 2013)
- Meizhou Han (probably Hakka): 7/35=20% (Xue Yali et al. 2006)
- Taipei Minnan Han: 11/60=18,3% (Trejaut et al. 2014)
- Taiwan Xinzhu Hakka: 1/34=2,9% (Trejaut er al. 2014)

So one of those populations which might have preserved the genes of aboriginal mountaineers of southeastern China (Chaoshan Hakka) still includes a high frequency of men in y hg O1, whereas coastal Fujian Han appear to have more or less different ancestry.
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