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Topic Started: May 4 2007, 03:12:47 PM (195 Views)
ren
Advanced Member
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update:
Quote:
 
- Line1+, 002611- (men in five populations, Nonaka et al.)
- Line1+, 002611+ (men in seven populations, Nonaka et al.)
- Line1-, 002611+ (men in seven populations, Nonaka et al.)

Adding 002611+ into the mix, assuming it is a reliable point mutation as Nonaka claims, it would fall under Line1 as an immediate branch exclusive of the other branches in the below scenarios.

black man
May 3 2007, 09:07 PM
Huang's "O3" samples:

see also http://z6.invisionfree.com/orient/index.php?showtopic=1268

hts 1, 13: M9, M89, M117, M122, M134, M175, M214, 021354, 25 men.
hts 3, 9: M9, M89, M122, M134, M175, M214, 021354, 21 men.
hts 4, 6: M9, M89, M122, M175, M214, LY1, 21 men.
hts 7, 8: M9, M89, M122, M175, M214, 14 men.
hts 17, 21: M9, M89, M122, M175, M214, 021354, 5 men.
hts 18, 33: M7, M9, M89, M122, M175, M214, 021354, 4 men.

Given that 021345 occurs with and without M134, it would seem that it is upstream from M134.

>021354
>>M134
>>>M134, M117


Given that Line1 occurs without 021345 and vice versa, it seems that they are parallel branches.

>Line1
>021345


Given that 021345 occurs with or without M7, it seems that 0212345 is upstream from M7. Given that M134 does not occur with M7 and vive versa, it seem they are parallel branches below 021345.

>021345
>>M7
>>M134
>>>M134, M117


The consolidated tree up to this point would be

>Line1

>021345
>>M7
>>M134
>>>M134, M117


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So far, no problem, but then we run into trouble:
Quote:
 
hts 24, 29: M7, M9, M89, M122, M175, M214, LY1, 021354, 2 men.
hts 25, 32: M9, M89, M121, M122, M175, M214, 2 men.
hts 34, 35: M9, M89, M122, M175, M214, LY1, 021354, 2 men.


Given that Line1 suddenly appears with 021345 and 021345+M7, we have to assume A), B ), or C).


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A) Line1 occurs as an insertion and then 021345 is derived from it, but than Line1 becomes a deletion, in which case you'd get 021345 without Line1 and the appearance of it as a parallel branch to the Line1 branch. In this case, Line1 could've occurred as a deletion twice, once with 021345 and once with 021345 + M7, or Line1 could be occur as a deletion once, in which case M7 is recurrent also.

Scenario 1a:
>Line1
>>021345
>>>021345 + Line del
>>>M7
>>>>M7 + Line1 del
>>M134
>>>M134, M117


Scenario 1b:
>Line1
>>021345
>>>021345 + Line del
>>>>021345 + Line1 del + M7

>>>M7
>>M134
>>>M134, M117[/b


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


B ) Or Line1 recurred twice, once with 021345 and once with 021345 + M7:

>021345
>>021345 + Line1
>>M7
>>>M7 + Line1


The consolidated tree would be,

Scenario 2:
>Line1

>021345
>>021345 + Line1
>>M7
>>>M7 + Line1
>>M134
>>>M134, M117


Or Line1 could have recurred only once in this case, and then M7 is also a recurrence.

Scenario 3:
>Line1

>021345
>>M7
>>M134
>>>M134, M117
>>021345 + Line1
>>>021345 + Line1 + M7



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


C) 021345 and M7 are recurrent mutations. If 021345 is the recurrent mutation, then M7 is also recurrent and a derivative of 021345 + Line1.

Scenario 4:
>Line1
>>021345
>>>021345 + M7


>021345
>>M7
>>M134
>>>M134, M117


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


-Given that Line is mentioned as an unreliable marker, than Scenario 1 is most likely.

-021345 is mentioned as reliable.

-Is there any mention ont he reliability of M7?

-Why would Line1 keep recurring and deleting in the O3 lineage and not anywhere elese?

Quote:
 
Santos et al. tested Line1 in 633 y-chromosomes from all around the world and was found in 15 Asians. For this reason it might have been considered a reliable marker by some researchers (e.g. Hammer and Karafet). But as Santos et al. explained, there are two methods of detection: one being apparently more reliable than the other. That could be one potential error source for researchers.

I don't know enough about chemistry to figure out the details, but the same question could be asked about P25: why did the defining mutation occur in hg R1b and nowhere else? And why did it mutate back since a mutation of the same allele in exactly the same haplogroup is statistically less likely than the mutation of this allele in countless other haplogroups?
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