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patrilineage distribution map...
Topic Started: Apr 29 2007, 07:58:20 AM (883 Views)
juhis
Mheeh
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I tried to collect some further data regarding Maju's map in the thread "Haplogroup R", this time about the derivates of K (L and M excluded). The source material is from Rootsi2006.pdf and WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

I hope I managed to attach it. Feel free to correct/edit it...
Edited: L and M now included... Changes may appear later...
More edited: It seems to have suffered a bit from retouching (I had to shrink it and change format and so on to make it fit the 100kb limit). Should I actually send the original to you maybe? (you seem to have more rights regarding the image attachements)

Edited 30.4.07: This is for the starters...
Edited 30.4.07: And some more for starters...
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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juhis
Mheeh
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And I forgot to mention that the source-material is also inadequate, since there are information lacking about a bunch of nations/tribes. The finnish "data" is from that old study Dual Origins Of The Finns. It would be nice to get more detailed data for the map, so the picture would also gain clarification.
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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Maju
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sorgina
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Well, in fact is pretty good to illustrate my new idea of an East Asian K root ;)

What about that NO area in southern Japan? Is that real or some kind of an error? I never read about NO*, much less as a numerically significative haplogroup.
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juhis
Mheeh
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Maju:
Quote:
 
What about that NO area in southern Japan? Is that real or some kind of an error? I never read about NO*, much less as a numerically significative haplogroup.

I got it from Rootsi 2006.pdf. There is also a map of NO (I was surprised also). The maps are zoomable, but with a poor resolution. I haven't found any original maps (yet).
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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Maju
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sorgina
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juhis
Apr 29 2007, 05:59 PM
Maju:
Quote:
 
What about that NO area in southern Japan? Is that real or some kind of an error? I never read about NO*, much less as a numerically significative haplogroup.

I got it from Rootsi 2006.pdf. There is also a map of NO (I was surprised also). The maps are zoomable, but with a poor resolution. I haven't found any original maps (yet).

Cool maps, thanks. :)

But the apportion of NO* in southern Japan would only be of some 5% at most, while the same region has much higher levels of O (at least 50-60%). Anyhow it's interesting that NO* people exists and is located, even if in small proportions, in China and Japan.

Also you left a blank in Yakutia, that appears as strongly N3 in these maps.

In Central Asia, rather than a mixed area of R1a and O, what there is seems to be:
- Khazakstan: O (and specially C)
- Kirguizistan and Tayikistan: dominated by R1a (but Kirguizistan also has a lot of O)
- Uyguristan (Xinkiang): R1a, R1b and (in lesser ammount but still significative) O and many other haplogroups.
- Uzbekistan is much mixed (with about 20% of R1a)

... and I know of no reliable data for Turkmenistan nor Afghanistan.
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juhis
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Then I need a pair of eye-glasses, or then Rootsi has it all wrong regarding Japan... Hmmm, let's see
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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Maju
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sorgina
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juhis
Apr 29 2007, 06:56 PM
Then I need a pair of eye-glasses, or then Rootsi has it all wrong regarding Japan... Hmmm, let's see

I just looked at the maps, haven't read the ful article yet. Use the zoom and see the scale. The one for NO* has it's max at 5%, while the one for O has the max at 80%. The shade may be equally intense, but they represent different things.
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ren
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The Rootsi paper's NO and N* map is very interesting... I never bothered to open the paper until now.

NO's max in Japan doesn't neccesarily mean it's origins in Japan. The Yayoi most likely came from Korea 2,500 years ago bringing it there. And before Korea the people physically and culturally seem to resemble Siberians somewhat.

As for N*, the distribution map seems to resemble the O3 map, which was based on one small ethnic Tibeto-Burman group, who had like 100% of the same lineage, which is likely a tribal founder effect or drift. Historically, the Tibeto-Burmans are documented to be from the NW of China proper.
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black man
The Right Hand
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Maju
Apr 29 2007, 03:47 PM
What about that NO area in southern Japan? Is that real or some kind of an error? I never read about NO*, much less as a numerically significative haplogroup.

This is Hammer's data. In Hammer's Shikoku sample a founder event for hg C1 (also generally very rare) is likewise evident. Maybe the occurence of founder events on this peculiar island has something to do with it's history rather than with a fundamentally distinct genetic composition.

Quote:
 
In Central Asia, rather than a mixed area of R1a and O, what there is seems to be:
- Khazakstan: O (and specially C)
- Kirguizistan and Tayikistan: dominated by R1a (but Kirguizistan also has a lot of O)
- Uyguristan (Xinkiang): R1a, R1b and (in lesser ammount but still significative) O and many other haplogroups.
- Uzbekistan is much mixed (with about 20% of R1a)


Really, hardly anything can be generalised. There are too few samples, and the tribes will probably deviate from each other patrilineally, as Rootsi's map as well as Chaix' STR results indicated. Only mtDNA is similar in these ethnic groups.

ren
Apr 29 2007, 08:01 PM
As for N*, the distribution map seems to resemble the O3 map, which was based on one small ethnic Tibeto-Burman group, who had like 100% of the same lineage, which is likely a tribal founder effect or drift. Historically, the Tibeto-Burmans are documented to be from the NW of China proper.


It doesn't seem to be uncommon among Sino-Tibetans. For a comparison, you can check the frequencies of "H5" in the tables of Su et al. 1999 and Su et al. 2000. It is paragroup K-M9+, M119-, M95-, M122-, M45- and might include a new sublineage (if not several ones) of hg N.

Btw, the frequencies on which Rootsi's map is based can be found in their supplemental material.
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Jhangora
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Thanx a lot juhis.

Maybe we could have detailed patrilineage distribution maps for different regions too.That would make the picture a lot clearer.I googled for Y haplogroup maps for India but couldn't find anything to post here.
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juhis
Mheeh
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Maju Posted on Apr 29 2007, 10:52 PM
Quote:
 
I just looked at the maps, haven't read the ful article yet. Use the zoom and see the scale. The one for NO* has it's max at 5%, while the one for O has the max at 80%. The shade may be equally intense, but they represent different things.

Yes, I noticed now when I finally had a closer look (I should be more careful...)

Maju Posted on Apr 29 2007, 10:52 PM
Quote:
 

Also you left a blank in Yakutia, that appears as strongly N3 in these maps.

Yep, it was the "WorldHaplogroupMaps" that made me confuse the Evenks' and Yakuts' homelands.

juhis Posted on Apr 29 2007, 10:58 AM
Quote:
 
Edited: L and M now included... Changes may appear later...

I still hasn't seem to added M to the map let's see...
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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juhis
Mheeh
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As I had a look of the M & K-updated version of map, it would look as if the Eurasians mostly are the descendants of ancient Papua-New Guineans <_< Back migration maybe? :D
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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ren
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black man
Apr 29 2007, 11:02 PM
Btw, the frequencies on which Rootsi's map is based can be found in their supplemental material.

Well, to me, Rootsi is a bit sentimental. :rolleyes: He/She uses a very small Sengupta sample of N(xN3) to be N*? It's a big assumption that N(xN3) must be N*(xN1, 2, 3). :rolleyes: So sentimental these Occidentals...

His/her high concentration in SE Asia (based on Sengupta) for N* is based on 1 N(xN3-TAT) out of 6 Cambodians.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...pe=table&id=TB7

For China, he/she uses 10 cases with N(xN3-TAT) out of 128 samples.

This is a bit too sentimental for my Eastern tastes. Ah, the differences between the Oriental and Occidental minds and souls... :( Will the gulf ever lessen. Things to ponder deeply about.
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black man
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ren
Apr 30 2007, 11:07 PM
black man
Apr 29 2007, 11:02 PM
Btw, the frequencies on which Rootsi's map is based can be found in their supplemental material.

Well, to me, Rootsi is a bit sentimental. :rolleyes: She uses a very small Sengupta sample of N(xN3) to be N*?

As long as humanities (including e.g. ethnography) are discredited by politicians, it's no wonder that studies on even population genetics end up with biased samples.
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Maju
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sorgina
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juhis
Apr 30 2007, 06:18 PM
As I had a look of the M & K-updated version of map, it would look as if the Eurasians mostly are the descendants of ancient Papua-New Guineans <_< Back migration maybe? :D

Not likely, really.

Apart of the major clades L-R, there are a number of other K branches. AFAIK, so far, only K1-K7 have been classified, of which K5 is typically New Guinean and K6 and K7 have significative presence in Melanesia. There could be other branches yet to be identified. Hence Oceanian K is not (in principle) K-root but a fan of minor sub-branches.

Be very wary of X* haplogroups. Normally the only thing the asterisk means is that no downstream classification has been made, not that they are near the root of the tree for that haplogroup necessarily. Also, in many cases it just means that no downstream testing was made in that particular study (genetic studies can be quite expensive and that limits scientists).
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juhis
Mheeh
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Maju Posted on May 1 2007, 11:21 AM
Quote:
 
Be very wary of X* haplogroups. Normally the only thing the asterisk means is that no downstream classification has been made, not that they are near the root of the tree for that haplogroup necessarily. Also, in many cases it just means that no downstream testing was made in that particular study (genetic studies can be quite expensive and that limits scientists).


No wonder the "Western markers" seem to be better known. For example DNA-tribes are funded by "their own samples" (clever, eh?), and the samples in question usually have that 100$ to spare, just to find out their origins, which in turn can be misinterpreted like being a direct descendant of the "Aryan superheros" etc.

In the university-level studies it seems to depend totally on the interests of the sponsors what the subject of the study will eventually be. To get further funding, the results need to be promising enough (or sensational). An academic interest to gain knowledge seldom seems to be free from capitalist bias <_<

BTW, Happy Labour Day everybody! (here it's called "The Worker's Day", I'm not sure of the international name, though)
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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Maju
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sorgina
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International Workers' Day, that's the correct name (but Anglosaxons have a strong anti-socialist bias - can you believe it's not celebrated at all in the USA?!)

Rather than just happy, struggling IWD! I would say. It was concieved to claim journeys of 8 hours more than a century ago, and in many cases, this has not been yet achieved at all. Let's keep the fight up! :ph43r:
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juhis
Mheeh
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This is already going off topic (mods, feel free to separate this to it's own thread), but one day the day will come, when the modern form of serfdom crumbles to dust, as the people finally start daring to live their own lives.

A. Solzhenitsyn wrote in his "Open Letter To The Soviet Government" (out of my own memory, not a precise quotation, as I couldn't find it from the Web):

"...when the people stop lying along their rulers, the system would cease to need using lies itself in order to rule, and therefore the simple truth would have a tremendous moral impact in the society..."

I try to mean, that if we would only allow us to openly see and speak out what we see, the outcome should be a huge moral upheaval inside the capitalist system, if widely practiced. Truth will not burn in fire (it only gets purified...)

This was a quite popular song also here in the 70's B)
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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Maju
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sorgina
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Yah, it's totally off topic but it's not my section, so I'm powerless.

The Islamo-Democrats have smashed the Turkish demonstrators this year. :angry:
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juhis
Mheeh
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Are they trying to silence the free speech by brute force? Did it just happen (the Tuskish news are not necessarily the braking news here as being a far away country...)? Their moral stance is not going to last forever! Once again the Power is showing it's true nature. They need to be said in a straight foward way where the origin of their problem lies (again a falsified history, or a "history-complex" so common in the Eastern Europe nowadays...). They are free to disagree (and, as someone said in a more historical times: "You may disagree, but I will stand up your right to do so until the death") They should just stop lying! (as our governments should also so BTW...) End. POWER TO THE PEOPLE! :ph43r:
[size=7]The Hate is passive Suffering, where as the Anger is sort of Rejoice.[/size] [size=1]W. B. Yeats [/size]
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