Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Add Reply
The Korean head
Topic Started: Apr 1 2007, 10:05:40 AM (25,603 Views)
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
Literature:

Han, Rhi and Lee 2004: Development of Prototypes of Half-Mask Facepieces

Hao et al. 1998: A Study on Anthropometric Measurement of Head and Face of Chinese (Han tribe, Man tribe, Hui tribe, Chaoxian tribe)
The Journal of the Kyushu Dental Society, Vol.52, No.1, pp. 54-62

Hu, Kyung-Seok, Koh, Ki-Seok/Jung, Han-Sung/Kang, Min-Kyu/Choi, Byoung-Young/Kim, Hee-Jin: PhysicalAnthropological Characteristics and Sex Determinative Analysis by the Metric Traits of Korean Mandibles
journal name: ?, 369 ~ 382, Vol.13, No.4, 2000

Kim et al. 1997: Measurements of the Zygomatic Bones and Morphology of the Zygomaticofacial and Zygomaticotemporal foramina in Korean

Koh KS et al. : Anthropological study on the Facial Flatness of Korean from the Historic to the Modern Period
Korean J Phys Anthropol. 1999 Dec;12(2):211-221.

Koh KS, Shon HJ, Chung RH, Kang HS.: An Anthropometric Study of Flatness of the Korean Crania.
Korean J Phys Anthropol. 1997 Jun;10(1):1-11.

Koh, Kiseok: Anthropological Characteristics of Korean Crania
journal name: ?, 122 ~ 130, Vol.23, No.2, 1999

Kyung-Seok Hu D.D.S., M.S., Ki-Seok Koh Ph.D., Seung-Ho Han M.D., Ph.D., Kyoung-Jin Shin D.D.S., Ph.D., Hee-Jin Kim D.D.S., Ph.D. (2006): Sex Determination Using Nonmetric Characteristics of the Mandible in Koreans

Park DK, Lee UY, Lee JH, Choi BY, Koh KS, Kim HJ, Park SJ, Han SH: Non-metric Traits of Korean Skulls
Korean J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;14(2):117-126. Korean.

more general information at www.sac.or.kr/eng/face/anthro.html
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
black man
Apr 1 2007, 10:05 AM
Anthropological Characteristics of Korean Crania
Koh, Kiseok
journal name: ?, 122 ~ 130, Vol.23, No.2, 1999

Non-metric Traits of Korean Skulls
Park DK, Lee UY, Lee JH, Choi BY, Koh KS, Kim HJ, Park SJ, Han SH
Korean J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;14(2):117-126. Korean.

It seems that non-metrics relate them more to East Asia's northern neighbors. In that case, Koreans' less robusticity compared to Mongols and Kazakhs may be due to neolithilization or response to warmer temeratures.
Quote:
 
The clustering analysis represented that the facial flatness of Korean crania is closely related to those of the northern Chinese, modern Japanese. However, non-metric dimensions of Korean crania were more closely related to those of Mongol, Kazach.

Quote:
 
The distance analyses (MMD; mean value of divergence) revealed that the Korean are more closely related to the population in Kazach and Mongol than to the population in China and Japan.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
ren,Apr 3 2007
06:26 PM
black man,Apr 1 2007
10:05 AM
Anthropological Characteristics of Korean Crania
Koh, Kiseok
journal name: ?, 122 ~ 130, Vol.23, No.2, 1999

Non-metric Traits of Korean Skulls
Park DK, Lee UY, Lee JH, Choi BY, Koh KS, Kim HJ, Park SJ, Han SH
Korean J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;14(2):117-126. Korean.

It seems that non-metrics relate them more to East Asia's northern neighbors. In that case, Koreans' less robusticity compared to Mongols and Kazakhs may be due to neolithilization or response to warmer temeratures.

Obviously, average Koreans have lower metric values than average Mongols. In particular, the head length and breadth are similar to those of Han and Japanese. But on the other hand, relatively high percentages of Koreans are metrically similar to average Mongols concerning e.g. bizygomatic breadth of the face when one takes a look at more detailed statistics (see study mentioned at the bottom of this post).

I don't think that it has anything to do with climatic differences between Korea and Mongolia but rather with the establishment of a particular, hybridised average phenotype. Hybridisation theory would also explain why certain soft tissue characteristics common to East Siberians are also often found among southern Koreans but less in Japanese and Han, I think. (Sorry, I did not find any academic support for the latter observation, yet. It is a personal one.)

Another question would be whether Korean head has changed shape during time. As for the Japanese head, e.g. Suzuki wrote that it did: according to the data he compared, medieval Japanese were significantly more prognathic and dolichocephalic than present-day Japanese...Now imagine what could have occured after the hypothetic split between "proto-Mongols" and "proto-Koreans", a morphological predecessor for present-day Mongols being traced back to neolithic people of what is now northern Mongolia who were already significantly different from present-day Koreans. Maybe hybridisation, maybe change of social selection criteria concerning attractivity, maybe isolation, maybe change of head shape due to change of nutrition or a combination of several changes.

update: check out A Study on Anthropometric Measurement of Head and Face of Chinese by Jin et al. (also more details about the heads of Chinese Koreans)

------

(Some posts were moved from this thread to http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1228 )

------

from http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?s...dpost&p=3282039

ren,Dec 9 2007
06:12 AM

JCA,Dec 9 2007
01:33 AM
Actually, Japanese are not clearly diagnosable as "Mongoloid." Analyses of samples of Japanese often find them to be exactly opposite to Mongoloids (in the sense of East Asians) in the frequency of various traits. In regards to many presumably unadaptive traits, such as ABO blood type frequencies, Ainus are actually much closer to East Asians than Japanese are.

I mean in physical/forensic anthropology... What you are refering to? besides ABO blood type frequencies...
Quote:
 
On the other hand, Koreans tend to have short noses and puggish faces, rather similar to most Southeast Asians, for some reason.

Not the Koreans I've seen on average... and I've seen a lot. Numbers can verify just who is right on that. I believe black man has some numbers on Koreans.


(As for more general information about nasal and morphological facial height measuring, see http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1663&hl= )

I collected sources on nasal height (nasion-subnasale, as far as I can judge) data from 42mm on (Semang males) to 63mm (Iranian and Assyrian males). Because female values are usually lower than male values, it's possible that the minimum nose height of at least adult Semang people is even lower than 42mm. As for maximum nasal height of adult humans, Carleton Coon allegedly reported values higher than 70mm. But I don't know how reliable that information is. In any case, values like 42mm and 63mm are already rarely reported in Western studies. So I suggest to consider nasal heights (from nasion to subnasale) of about 52/53mm to be intermediate.

Only one of those Korean samples I'm aware of has on average a nasal height of 53mm. The other averaged values are all lower, two of them being below 50mm despite of the fact that these samples consisted of males only.

Unfortunately, there is the possibility that some of the Korean nasal data I know about was due to outdated measurement techniques. In the last century there was in fact a measurement technique which led to lower values than one would expect today.

But if the data are correct (and representative), at least several different Korean populations are definitely not high-faced on average. Moreover, Korean nasal dimensions are in this case similar to those of Malay, Vietnamese, Miao and Daic samples ("intermediate" nose heights) or even insular Austronesians, South Asians and Africans ("smaller" nose heights). Taking into account that Korean facial heights were apparently reported to be tendentially intermediate, one might conclude that the Korean chin contributes relatively much to the Korean facial height. Something similar could be said about e.g. Inuit noses and facial heights.

Those East Asians with the highest noses are, to my knowledge, Sino-Tibetans (especially the "northwestern" ones, i.e., Shanxi Han, Himalayan Khampas, Himalayan "Changpas", Yunnan Han, whose ancestors were probably from Henan, and Qiang). According to the data, their nose heights are similar to those of (mostly IE and partly Semitic) West Asians (about 60mm). The noses of other Sino-Tibetan, Siberian, Kalmyk, Inuit, Sioux and eastern Indonesian samples are a few mms lower (though still high).

Korean males follow with 48-53mm together with quite a lot of peoples from all around the world: SE Asian "negritos" tend to have lower noses, subsaharan Africans, Australian aborigines and Papuans broader ones and West Eurasians narrower ones.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ebizur
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
ren
Dec 21 2007, 08:32 PM
It's possible the their relatively developed jaw/chin and narrow noses makes the impression that their mid-facial region is longer.

That is definitely not what blackman was trying to say! Koreans tend to have short, broad (rather triangular, actually) noses, and their midfacial regions are not long at all. Are you confusing them with Manchus or something?

By a "triangular nose," I mean that their noses tend to be relatively narrow at the top (between the eyes) and relatively broad at the bottom (just above the upper lip). In my experience, the typical Korean nose resembles the typical Ainu "pig nose," but Koreans tend to have a flatter glabellar region. This sort of "pig nose" is very common among Southeast Asians and Indians, too. The Yemeni man in that old black-and-white photo posted by Irano_Afghan has the same sort of nose.

I don't know where people who don't know Koreans get their stereotypes of them!

Here are some typical Koreans:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
JCA
Dec 21 2007, 11:03 PM
I don't know where people who don't know Koreans get their stereotypes of them!

Here are some typical Koreans:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

People get their stereotypes from 20th century anthropological works by people like von Eickstedt and Coon. The latter collected a couple of samples in one or two regions of a continent plus a couple of rumours and wrote that altogether into their possibly still relatively popular works.

AFAIK, von Eickstedt only visited southern China, from where he had a Yunnanese Han sample, which he might have used for his definition of a long-faced "Nordsinid" (northern Chinese) type since the ancestors of Yunnanese are partly from Henan. Because von Eickstedt seemed to believe in a correlation between phenoptypes and cultures, I suppose that he concluded that long-faced East Asians would be automatically "warlike" and vice versa. Now, unlike many southern Han local populations, northern Han, Koreans and Japanese happen to be famous for warrior traditions. This might have been the "reason" for which von Eickstedt associated them all with long-faced "Nordsinids".

Ironically, von Eickstedt even seems to have acknowledged that e.g. Shandong Han and southern Koreans aren't long-faced on average. In fact, he also associated them with SE Asians. But in those circles which still read von Eickstedt's works there are many people with fascistoid ideological backgrounds who only remember text passages where "warrior races" are artificially constructed by authors of outdated books. That is how I'd explain the strange statements one occasionally finds in the internet.

Worth mentioning is also that von Eickstedt emphasised a "Nordsinid" component in northern Koreans. Yet, Shirokogorov, who published his work before von Eickstedt, reported an average facial height of only 117mm for northern Koreans. 117mm are less than the "southern" average facial heights from von Eickstedt's own e.g. Vietnamese samples. A later study of Chinese Koreans confirmed an intermediate average facial height of 120mm, also not far from von Eickstedt's average Vietnamese facial heights.

Sure, there is also the large pooled sample of North Koreans from several Japanese researchers which implies relatively high faces. But the according studies were from a time in which the measurement of facial heights by Japanese anthropologists might have depended on even more variable standards than today. Summing up some results of earlier Japanese studies, Kouichi Makiko in the end of the 20th century abstained from mentioning the values in a book because many of them were in her opinion too high.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
JCA
Dec 21 2007, 11:03 PM
Are you confusing them with Manchus or something?

No, I'm not confusing them with Manchus. The key word is "relatively", and maybe I forgot to say that, but relatively to sub-Saharans and southern Asians at the atleast.

Quote:
 
I don't know where people who don't know Koreans get their stereotypes of them!

I've known a lot of Korean Americans and seen even more, thousands. I wouldn't call their noses "broad", relative to the world at large, and objectively on average the width might be thinner than Westerns or atleast certain regions of western Eurasia; it's just that the gutted base, nasal sill makes the nose unraised/falttened at the bottom, which might create the impression, along with the lack of defined nasal root at the top, a broadness. The less prominent nose of Koreans compared to Japanese might give the impression that it's broad. The problem is that once we develope a certain formula, we tend to ignore those that contradict the formula while remembering deeply those that confirm it. I myself have experienced this with my impressions of what northern and southern Chinese were, before I got to China, so that the entire thread on southern Chinese phenotypes I made has to be scrapped.

But objectively speaking, I can't say the Korean nose is broad, nor does the number say that either I don't think.

Quote:
 

I wouldn't say these are typical Koreans, simply because of the fact that Korean presidents are not random people; you'd had to have them in mind before in your midn of what a Korean is. And I wouldn't even call the other ones "broad"... personally.

These are Korean (American?) students taken from Indiana U. Korean association website:
Posted Image
Posted Image
other pictures here, http://iuksa.cafe24.com/zeroboard/zboard.php?id=pic

Posted Image
There's tons of photos... all random Korean Americans.
Washington University Korean Student Association site:
http://students.washington.edu/ksa/photos.htm
Stanford site: http://www.stanford.edu/group/KASA/KSA_gallery/index.html
And so on...
One can get an accurate, random picture of Korean Americans by just checking out these sites, and on average I wouldn't say they have broad noses (strictly talking about the width relative in the world, and not prominence).
Plus, the numbers, in this sample atleast, say that Koreans actually have narrower noses than Japanese:
Posted Image

black man
Dec 22 2007, 01:13 AM
People get their stereotypes from 20th century anthropological works by people like von Eickstedt and Coon. The latter collected a couple of samples in one or two regions of a continent plus a couple of rumours and wrote that altogether into their possibly still relatively popular works.

AFAIK, von Eickstedt only visited southern China, from where he had a Yunnanese Han sample, which he might have used for his definition of a long-faced "Nordsinid" (northern Chinese) type since the ancestors of Yunnanese are partly from Henan. Because von Eickstedt seemed to believe in a correlation between phenoptypes and cultures, I suppose that he concluded that long-faced East Asians would be automatically "warlike" and vice versa. Now, unlike many southern Han local populations, northern Han, Koreans and Japanese happen to be famous for warrior traditions. This might have been the "reason" for which von Eickstedt associated them all with long-faced "Nordsinids".

Ironically, von Eickstedt even seems to have acknowledged that e.g. Shandong Han and southern Koreans aren't long-faced on average. In fact, he also associated them with SE Asians. But in those circles which still read von Eickstedt's works there are many people with fascistoid ideological backgrounds who only remember text passages where "warrior races" are artificially constructed by authors of outdated books. That is how I'd explain the strange statements one occasionally finds in the internet.

Worth mentioning is also that von Eickstedt emphasised a "Nordsinid" component in northern Koreans. Yet, Shirokogorov, who published his work before von Eickstedt, reported an average facial height of only 117mm for northern Koreans. 117mm are less than the "southern" average facial heights from von Eickstedt's own e.g. Vietnamese samples. A later study of Chinese Koreans confirmed an intermediate average facial height of 120mm, also not far from von Eickstedt's average Vietnamese facial heights.

Sure, there is also the large pooled sample of North Koreans from several Japanese researchers which implies relatively high faces. But the according studies were from a time in which the measurement of facial heights by Japanese anthropologists might have depended on even more variable standards than today. Summing up some results of earlier Japanese studies, Kouichi Makiko in the end of the 20th century abstained from mentioning the values in a book because many of them were in her opinion too high.

I have never read any of those guys, except Coon, and I don't recall reading anything on Koreans.

My general impression is formed out of knowing and seeing thousands of Korean AMericans first-hand.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ebizur
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Here are some of ren's so-called "other photos" from the Washington University Korean Student Association website:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

The problem with these photos is that you can't be sure that any particular individual is actually a full-blooded Korean. Many of them appear to be Americans of European ancestry or Euro-Asian hybrids. Even the ones who appear "Asian" are not necessarily all Korean. I, for one, have participated in functions of both the Korean Student Assocation and the Japanese Student Association at my university, and I also know many other persons of European ancestry, mixed European and Asian ancestry, or non-Korean or non-Japanese Asian ancestry who participated in the respective groups.

As for the individuals in these photos who appear to be full-blooded Asians, about half of them (particularly the females) have the typical short, piggy noses that I was talking about yesterday. This assures me that at least a majority of the participants are of mostly Korean ancestry. :P

I think ren might be correct that it is not so much a matter of the metrical broadness (width) of the nose, but rather the impression that is created by a short, flattish nose on a broad face. The average Korean person's nose might be metrically "narrower" than the average Japanese person's nose, but the overall appearance of the average Korean person's nose is much more piggy. Maybe "short, small, and flat" is a better description than "broad" in this case.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
ren
Dec 22 2007, 05:09 PM
I have never read any of those guys, except Coon, and I don't recall reading anything on Koreans.

My general impression is formed out of knowing and seeing thousands of Korean AMericans first-hand.

Well, as far as I remember, you communicated with "Agrippa" via PM at dodona. That's why I mentioned it above. Also, JCA seemed to have encountered the statement already before.

But of course, there are many ways how one can get the impression that the Korean middle face would be high (high eyebrows, narrow nose, generally big face...).

Concerning your hint (Korean Americans), I just coincidentally found a link:

http://www.femininebeauty.info/aesthetics.3.htm

See table 1, "n-sn" (nasal height: 51,8mm vs 50,6mm) and "sn-gn" (lower facial height: 66,8mm vs 64,3mm). From these data (published in 2004) one can relatively safely conclude that Korean American women are on average more high-faced than Euro-American women. (Afro-American women are more low-faced than Euro-Americans according to table 2 on that page linked to above.) Yet, other (non-Russian, non-Japanese) sources reported female nasal heights from 55 to 59mm (especially Farkas in 2005). So the latter is what I'd consider to be really high noses.

So, yes, you're right in the American context but I'm not sure as for the world-wide context. When we assume that the nasal sexual dimorphism of Korean Americans can be equated with that of Turkish (I'll take the data from Arslan et al. 2007* for the comparison), we might add about 3,5mm to the Korean American female nose in order to get the height of the Korean American male one. Then the latter would be moderately high (about 55mm) and comparable to e.g. SE Siberian (Nivkh), Indonesian (Minangkabau, Sumbanese and Timorese) and Cantonese nasal heights.

----------------

* (Btw, Arslan et al. reported 46mm as the minimum nasal height and 62mm as the maximum nasal height for the females in their sample and 48mm/72mm for the males.)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
JCA
Dec 22 2007, 08:53 PM

No, these are not my "so called 'other photos'" but ones you've picked out, which to me seems somehow trying to make the point that fit your argument, whereas I actually just picked the first photos I saw with a lot of frontal faces. You could've posted a lot of other, more productive photos.

Quote:
 
The problem with these photos is that you can't be sure that any particular individual is actually a full-blooded Korean. Many of them appear to be Americans of European ancestry or Euro-Asian hybrids. Even the ones who appear "Asian" are not necessarily all Korean.

Well, I'm not going to argue over whether they are Euro-Asian hybrids. 99% of them look just like typical Korean Americans.

Quote:
 
I, for one, have participated in functions of both the Korean Student Assocation and the Japanese Student Association at my university, and I also know many other persons of European ancestry, mixed European and Asian ancestry, or non-Korean or non-Japanese Asian ancestry who participated in the respective groups.

Well, where is this, in the US or Japan? And it appears to me you haven't been to a university with a lot of Koreans or live in a region with a lot of them. Perhaps your first impressions are of a limited number of Korean, say South Korean graduate students who had broad noses, and the impression stuck.

My point is that you seem to be insisting on something, finding excuses or deliberately making a case, without just letting the numbers and pics speak for themselves.

Quote:
 
As for the individuals in these photos who appear to be full-blooded Asians, about half of them (particularly the females) have the typical short, piggy noses that I was talking about yesterday. This assures me that at least a majority of the participants are of mostly Korean ancestry. :P

Post some pics. I want to get an idea of what you think is piggish, short noses. that I might agree on, but the average Korean nose, objectively speaking, is not wide relative to the world at large.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
black man
Dec 22 2007, 09:08 PM
Well, as far as I remember, you communicated with "Agrippa" via PM at dodona. That's why I mentioned it above. Also, JCA seemed to have encountered the statement already before.

Well, surely you didn't assume I was basing my opinions on Koreans based on such fellows as von Eickstedt? I'll just take it as your need to vent on European race science vis-a-vis Koreans. Otherwise, it seems like a low blow at me. :(

Quote:
 
But of course, there are many ways how one can get the impression that the Korean middle face would be high (high eyebrows, narrow nose, generally big face...).

Concerning your hint (Korean Americans), I just coincidentally found a link:

http://www.femininebeauty.info/aesthetics.3.htm

See table 1, "n-sn" (nasal height: 51,8mm vs 50,6mm) and "sn-gn" (lower facial height: 66,8mm vs 64,3mm). From these data (published in 2004) one can relatively safely conclude that Korean American women are on average more high-faced than Euro-American women. (Afro-American women are more low-faced than Euro-Americans according to table 2 on that page linked to above.) Yet, other (non-Russian, non-Japanese) sources reported female nasal heights from 55 to 59mm (especially Farkas in 2005). So the latter is what I'd consider to be really high noses.

Yeah, but relatively and practically speaking, that would make Korean mid-facial region rather high/long, which gets back to the original point about whether Korean noses are lepto or broad/short on average.

Quote:
 
So, yes, you're right in the American context but I'm not sure as for the world-wide context. When we assume that the nasal sexual dimorphism of Korean Americans can be equated with that of Turkish (I'll take the data from Arslan et al. 2007* for the comparison), we might add about 3,5mm to the Korean American female nose in order to get the height of the Korean American male one. Then the latter would be moderately high (about 55mm) and comparable to e.g. SE Siberian (Nivkh), Indonesian (Minangkabau, Sumbanese and Timorese) and Cantonese nasal heights.

I'm not convinced regarding Cantonese nasal heights. The average Catonese from my impression appear to have shorter, broader noses, but that's another topic, and perhaps you can bring in relevant information.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Actually, I was wondering, only if you had the desire, to collect the numbers on relating to Korean facial features, but only if you have the desire. Don't even feel this is a request. And if you do, you can do it a small amount at a time.

I'm curious about how my stereotypes of Koreans fit the numbers, noting that the numbers themselves vary, depending on method.

---

I've found a study with the averaged faces of Thais, Sino Thai, and Korean females, based on 50 individuals each: http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1738

It should be interesting. Decide for yourselves.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
ren
Dec 22 2007, 10:00 PM
Yeah, but relatively and practically speaking, that would make Korean mid-facial region rather high/long, which gets back to the original point about whether Korean noses are lepto or broad/short on average.

Quote:
 
So, yes, you're right in the American context but I'm not sure as for the world-wide context. When we assume that the nasal sexual dimorphism of Korean Americans can be equated with that of Turkish (I'll take the data from Arslan et al. 2007* for the comparison), we might add about 3,5mm to the Korean American female nose in order to get the height of the Korean American male one. Then the latter would be moderately high (about 55mm) and comparable to e.g. SE Siberian (Nivkh), Indonesian (Minangkabau, Sumbanese and Timorese) and Cantonese nasal heights.

I'm not convinced regarding Cantonese nasal heights. The average Catonese from my impression appear to have shorter, broader noses, but that's another topic, and perhaps you can bring in relevant information.

Having not yet collected enough data from recent studies, I today prefer reference to ranges of averages rather than average values alone. Sometimes these ranges of averages reach into the clearly high-faced (high-nosed) part of the scale, sometimes not. As for Koreans, the range of averages is from 49 to 52mm (nasal heights of women according to Kim 2003 and Choe 2004), from 48 to 53mm (nasal heights of men according to Ueda 1942/Kohama 1940 and several authors whose results were apparently pooled in 1934), from 110 to 119mm (morphol. facial heights of women according to Kim 2003 and Choe 2004) and from 117 to 124mm (morphol. facial heights of women according to Shirokogorov 1923 and several authors whose results were apparently pooled in 1934). This would IMO indicate that...

- averaged female Korean nasal heights vary from "moderately low" to "intermediate".
- averaged male Korean nasal heights vary from "moderately low" to "moderately high".
- averaged female Korean morph. facial heights vary from definitely low to intermediate.
- averaged male Korean morph. facial heights vary from moderately low to moderately high.

When we ignore the old samples, only the intermediate averages for both sexes and low averages for women remain.

Further, there is a recent study by Han et al. (2004) according to which 26 Korean men and 24 Korean women are put into three categories:
- "small" dimensions: 46 and 109mm on average.
- "medium" dimensions: 50 and 117mm on average.
- "large" dimensions: 54 and 125mm on average.

Furthermore, they mention who ended up where in the following categorisation...
- 98,5-107,5mm (very low-faced): 6 women
- 107,5-116,5mm (very low-faced to low-faced): 16 women, 6 men
- 116,5-125,5mm (moderately low to moderately large facial height): 2 women, 14 men.
- 125,5-134,5mm (large to very large facial height): 6 men.

^
IMO one shouldn't put too much trust in the more recent studies just because they are new. Actually, the studies by Kim et al. and Han et al. were made as a preparation for the design of respirator masks, not for interethnic comparisons of samples representative for (sub)populations.

-----------

I'd like to tell more about southern Han anthropometric values but in fact I couldn't get much data so far. So far, I came across high-faced Cantonese, high-faced Hokkienese, very large-faced Singaporean and absolutely narrow-faced Taiwanese averaged samples which made me wonder what was measured. Unfortunately, most authors only measured either northern or southern Han (and almost no Western source mentions central Han data).

Quote:
 
I've found a study with the averaged faces of Thais, Sino Thai, and Korean females, based on 50 individuals each: http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.php?showtopic=1738

It should be interesting. Decide for yourselves.


Can't access the page. That must be in a subforum where I've no access to.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
black man
Dec 22 2007, 11:56 PM
Can't access the page. That must be in a subforum where I've no access to.

Sorry, I fixed that problem. I can't believe there are still sections you have no access to.
It seems to be because you are under the "Laison" member group, from back in the days when I thought of you as a "laison" for CNA. That member group has long been neglected in terms of permissions in the admin. management control panel. I'll fix it later so you'll just be in the regular mod group.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
ren
Dec 22 2007, 05:09 PM
www.um.u-tokyo.ac.jp/publish_db/Bulletin/no27/27img/27tableiib-01.jpg[/IMG]

An additional comment concerning this table since you posted it more than once, as far as I remember:

IMO it's a good example for mixing samples which aren't comparable.

sample: source(s), reported averaged upper facial height in mm.

- northern Ainu: Hirai and Debets, 73,2.
- southern Ainu: quite a lot of Japanese researchers, 68,8.
- northern Honshuites (Tohoku): Yamasaki, 69.
- central Honshuites (Hokuriku): Otsuki and Ogata, 69,5.
- central Honshuites (Kanto): Morita and Mitsuhashi, 71,2.
- western Honshuites (Kinki): Miyamoto 1924 and Kanda 1959, 71,4.
- Kyushuites: several Japanese sources, 70,1.
- Yoron islanders (near southern Kyushu): Oyama, 70.
- Okinawans: Hsü, 65,9.
- Chukchi: Debets, 78,4.
- Buriats: Debets, 77,2.
- "Mongols": Debets, 78.
- Liaoning Han(?) pooled with Beijing Han(?): Shima cited by "Hsii" 1948 and Black 1928, 75,7.
- Hoklo Taiwanese: Asai, 70,5.
- Taiwanese aborigines ("Peipo"): Xu and Yuan, 70,4.
- "Koreans": Shima 1934, 73,9.
- "SE Asians" pooled: Pietrusewski, 69,5.

Why the highlights:

- Debets is a well-known Soviet anthropologist and as such should be expected to use the Soviet standard definition for upper facial height: pronasale to subnasale.
- As far as I can judge, Shima reported the values of the Liaoning Han and Black the ones of the other Han (from Beijing). What Black reported is indeed a high value but as not as high as the one of the pooled sample. If one concluded that the Liaoning Han sample was so high-faced, that would contradict older values of living samples from Shirokogorov as well as newer ones of living samples from Hao, I think. Shima's Korean sample can be indirectly compared with other Korean samples, too (see somewhere in the posts above). Since the Koreans according to Shima are quite high-faced, this sample might also reflect a measurement standard close to that of the Soviets.

I'll possibly go into detail as for the Turko-Mongolian data reported by Soviet researchers somewhere else since I recently found data according to Martin's standards. What is relevant for this topic: e.g. Buriat nasal and facial heights turn out to be only moderately high, which would imply an upper facial height of below 75 according to Martin's standard. Accordingly, the data of Shima (and maybe other Japanese researchers) might be a couple of milimeters too high for Martin's standard. Then the Koreans in the table above would be on average of more intermediate facial height (around 70mm).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cydevil
Member
[ *  * ]
I've come across this interesting news article written by a Korean professor who specializes in anaylsis of Korean faces. Generally, the article is supportive of the theory that Koreans consist of multiethnic mixture, and that 80% of Koreans are "northern" while 20% of Koreans are "southern". Here's a diagram that pretty much sums up his views on ethnic typology of Korean faces and period of migration of specific ethnic groups.

Posted Image

The X axis is the period of time in which the ethnic group migrated into the Korean peninsula. From left to right, they are as follows:

50,000 years ago
12,000
10,000
8,000
5,000
2,000
1,000

The Y axis is the ethnic typology and their percentages within the Korean population. From top to bottom, they are as follows:

3rd southern lineage
2nd southern lineage
1st southern lineage
Paleo-Siberian(Paleo-Asian)
Chinese
Intermediate(between Chinese and Tungusic)
Tungusic
Altai

The map is a distribution map of northern type and southern type Koreans. Dark circles are areas where southern types are more dominant, and light circles are areas where northern types are more dominant.

According to this professor, Secretary General of the UN, Ban Ki-moon, is a typical northern-Altaic type. Park Chanho, the baseball player, on the other hand, is a southern type.

Link to the article(in Korean):
http://article.joins.com/article/article.a...otal_id=2862004
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
Thanks a lot for your contribution, cydevil.

According to google translator, the author of the text describes typical combinations of physiological features in northern and southern Korea (maybe also in other places since e.g. SE Asia seems to be mentioned). Could you sum up which traits were attributed to which places?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cydevil
Member
[ *  * ]
black man,Dec 31 2007
10:15 PM
Thanks a lot for your contribution, cydevil.

According to google translator, the author of the text describes typical combinations of physiological features in northern and southern Korea (maybe also in other places since e.g. SE Asia seems to be mentioned). Could you sum up which traits were attributed to which places?

The Altai/northern type(UN secretary Ban Kimoon and President-elect Lee Myungbak) - The face is vertically pointy like a sweet potato. The eyebrows are shadowy(?) and short. Eyes are small with single eyelids. The brow is wide and the forehead is vertically long. Middle of the face(not so sure what this word exactly means though.. not even in the Korean dictionary) is bulgy with a pointy nose. There isn't much beard.

Southern type(Park Chanho, Lee Horyi) - Square, prominent face. Wide and short forehead, thick eyebrows, large eyes. They have thick lips and usually have double eyelids.

Paleo-Asians are the first inhabitants of the Korean peninsula. They have high cheekbones and large eyes. They can be seen in the mountainous areas like Chungcheong-North province.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
cydevil,Jan 7 2008
01:07 AM
The Altai/northern type(UN secretary Ban Kimoon and President-elect Lee Myungbak) - The face is vertically pointy like a sweet potato. The eyebrows are shadowy(?) and short. Eyes are small with single eyelids. The brow is wide and the forehead is vertically long. Middle of the face(not so sure what this word exactly means though.. not even in the Korean dictionary) is bulgy with a pointy nose. There isn't much beard.

Southern type(Park Chanho, Lee Horyi) - Square, prominent face. Wide and short forehead, thick eyebrows, large eyes. They have thick lips and usually have double eyelids.

Paleo-Asians are the first inhabitants of the Korean peninsula. They have high cheekbones and large eyes. They can be seen in the mountainous areas like Chungcheong-North province.

Thanks for your reply.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
According to this study, Koreans have narrower noses than Japanese.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/korean-japanese-anthropometric.html
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
ren
Nov 28 2008, 04:30:24 AM
According to this study, Koreans have narrower noses than Japanese.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/korean-japanese-anthropometric.html
Do they mention the raw data in tables?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ren
Advanced Member
[ *  *  * ]
Don't have access to journals anymore. Was it shown on Dienekes? Can't remember.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
I've been thinking about cydevil's contribution since back then when he posted it. And, even though I still don't have much to do with Korean anthropology, I managed to get a some more chances to check whether the anthroposcopic statements about nothern as opposed to southern Koreans:

Quote:
 
The Altai/northern type(UN secretary Ban Kimoon and President-elect Lee Myungbak) - The face is vertically pointy like a sweet potato. The eyebrows are shadowy(?) and short. Eyes are small with single eyelids. The brow is wide and the forehead is vertically long. Middle of the face(not so sure what this word exactly means though.. not even in the Korean dictionary) is bulgy with a pointy nose. There isn't much beard.

Southern type(Park Chanho, Lee Horyi) - Square, prominent face. Wide and short forehead, thick eyebrows, large eyes. They have thick lips and usually have double eyelids.

Paleo-Asians are the first inhabitants of the Korean peninsula. They have high cheekbones and large eyes. They can be seen in the mountainous areas like Chungcheong-North province.


At the first glance they seem to indicate a similar racial composition as in Japan. But it doesn't need to be like that, I suppose. Actually, I never encountered any pictures of Koreans who would look like peripheral Japanese. But relatively large eyes are a wide, low forehead and full lips occur in the Jiangnan coolie sample photographed by a Western reseacher of the 20th century as well. And facial hair could have been contributed by people from the meanwhile Chinese side of the Bohai Sea, too, although it could have been from a population different from that one in the Jiangnan region, which was described as having been less hairy for reasons unknown back then.

Anyway, I won't deny that my impressions are imcomplete. One should definitely have access to anthropological contributions on Korean mountaineers when one really wants to go into detail. And that doesn't seem to be possible outside of East Asia.




He posted this figure:

Posted Image
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/SS773NiLN8I/AAAAAAAAAbM/1X4fw9GRTSc/s400/Clipboard01.png

Nothing I could work with. It just confirms that the living head was measured.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
luxemen
Member
[ *  * ]
Hi a Korean person pitching in here –

I think there’s a lot of confusion around what’s the typical nose shape for Koreans because most non-Koreans that I’ve seen do not realize the full extent that there is a natural range of phenotype traits found among Koreans. Koreans being ‘homogeneous’ doesn’t mean that they have to all look exactly the same. Such a notion is not only factually inaccurate, it is also bordering racism.

Only people who have limited interactions with Koreans (or have only seen a few pictures of Korean presidents) would come away with thinking that all Koreans have short, flat piggy-like noses.

In a similar vein, people who have only seen Koreans in TV dramas will come away with thinking that all Koreans have straight, prominent noses.

Reality is that both shapes exist (as well as others) naturally in the peninsula. Why? Because Koreans are a hybrid race that received both Northern and Southern inputs, along with others. That’s why you see some people having vastly different impressions of Koreans.

The natural range is found between two related sibilings (just taking the last royal Korean family for example:)

Long, straight, moderately prominent nose:

Prince Yi Wu
Posted Image

Prince Yi Geon (his brother)
Posted Image

A more short/piggy-ish nose:

Prince Yi Wun (his other brother)
Posted Image

You can't say that those individuals look different due to plastic surgery. These people have existed in the early 1900's.

But in general, Koreans are not known for their broad or big noses. That’s actually one of the characteristics of the average Korean face (a small, moderately narrow nose that doesn't project as much but is neither flat).

Edited by luxemen, Apr 27 2018, 07:06:45 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
^
Thanks for the input, Nurizone.

Since you're here now (as a potential reader), I'll probably proceed like in the forum section in which I already posted on Han Chinese regional physical anthropology. I.e., I'll try to comment on anthropometric and anthroposcopic data of Korean samples focussing on the regions.

A potentially interesting side note:

there are different methods of measuring nose height. In western Europe and North America anthropometrists originally used the nasion as a landmark on the human skull. But in living people they had to estimate its position and, thus, often used the sellion instead, i.e., the least prominent landmark of the nose profile in between the eyes. According to this way of measuring noses, Prince Yi Wun's nose might be relatively "short". But the Russians usually also measure nose height in a different way: they use the browridge as landmark instead of nasion/sellion. So different anthropometrists might associate the prince with "two very different nose heights" since his eyebrows seem to be rather high. This kind of observation is particularly noteworthy in the context of North Asian anthropology. And there seems to be cline from North Asia to SE Asia with the difference between "supraorbitale to subnasion" and "sellion to subnasion" typically being significantly larger in North Asians.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
luxemen
Member
[ *  * ]
black man
Apr 27 2018, 06:00:10 PM
^
Thanks for the input, Nurizone.

Since you're here now (as a potential reader), I'll probably proceed like in the forum section in which I already posted on Han Chinese regional physical anthropology. I.e., I'll try to comment on anthropometric and anthroposcopic data of Korean samples focussing on the regions.

A potentially interesting side note:

there are different methods of measuring nose height. In western Europe and North America anthropometrists originally used the nasion as a landmark on the human skull. But in living people they had to estimate its position and, thus, often used the sellion instead, i.e., the least prominent landmark of the nose profile in between the eyes. According to this way of measuring noses, Prince Yi Wun's nose might be relatively "short". But the Russians usually also measure nose height in a different way: they use the browridge as landmark instead of nasion/sellion. So different anthropometrists might associate the prince with "two very different nose heights" since his eyebrows seem to be rather high. This kind of observation is particularly noteworthy in the context of North Asian anthropology. And there seems to be cline from North Asia to SE Asia with the difference between "supraorbitale to subnasion" and "sellion to subnasion" typically being significantly larger in North Asians.
I see. Thank you for your reply. I'm realizing that different impressions of physical traits can be facilitated more by the different syntax and usage of certain anthropological terms, and less by the actual disagreements in observations.

By "supraorbitale", you're referring to the person's browridge, correct?

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
black man
The Right Hand
[ *  *  * ]
Nurizone
Apr 27 2018, 06:50:02 PM
I see. Thank you for your reply. I'm realizing that different impressions of physical traits can be facilitated more by the different syntax and usage of certain anthropological terms, and less by the actual disagreements in observations.

By "supraorbitale", you're referring to the person's browridge, correct?

The supraorbitale is the upper orbital rim. One would expect it to be close to the eyebrows in most people. In the context of nose heights the Russians found it more easy to identify than the nasion (which is under the skin) and more "reliable" than the sellion (which can be interpreted as having something to do with nose profile per se). But in this case, too, there can be some interobserver error because of the different ways anthropometrists could have dealt with the people whom they measured. (Orbital shapes vary, too. Plus, some anthropometrists might have preferred to locate the eyebrows instead of the orbital rim.)




Btw, (...),

that's AFAIK a hobbyist site. Nothing against hobbyists per se. But concerning physical anthropology etc..., please remove the link. Or I'll do so. Apart from that, you don't need to quote hobbyists. I trust in your own words.
Edited by black man, Apr 27 2018, 08:11:41 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
luxemen
Member
[ *  * ]
black man
Apr 27 2018, 07:04:31 PM
Nurizone
Apr 27 2018, 06:50:02 PM
I see. Thank you for your reply. I'm realizing that different impressions of physical traits can be facilitated more by the different syntax and usage of certain anthropological terms, and less by the actual disagreements in observations.

By "supraorbitale", you're referring to the person's browridge, correct?

The supraorbitale is the upper orbital rim. One would expect it to be close to the eyebrows in most people. In the context of nose heights the Russians found it more easy to identify than the nasion (which is under the skin) and more "reliable" than the sellion (which can be interpreted as having something to do with nose profile per se). But in this case, too, there can be some interobserver error because of the different ways anthropometrists could have dealt with the people whom they measured. (Orbital shapes vary, too. Plus, some anthropometrists might have preferred to locate the eyebrows instead of the orbital rim.)




Btw, re. (...),

that's AFAIK a hobbyist site. Nothing against hobbyists per se. But concerning physical anthropology etc..., please remove the link. Or I'll do so. Apart from that, you don't need to quote hobbyists. I trust in your own words.
Thanks Black Man. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. I'll keep in mind that even with the more precise metrics, there may always be some interobserver error so always room for different interpretations.

As for that site, I've removed the link. I'm not going to mention it again on this forum.

Thanks for that heads-up.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
Learn More · Sign-up for Free
« Previous Topic · Korean · Next Topic »
Add Reply