| Medieval y hg C3 starcluster and local histories | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 8 2007, 07:02:31 PM (1,213 Views) | |
| black man | Mar 8 2007, 07:02:31 PM Post #1 |
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The Right Hand
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Someone at rootsweb checked the matches of a specific haplotypes within hg C3, I suppose paragroup C3(xC3a,b,c), to be exact: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEA...7-03/1173278617
According to ysearch, there are also South Asians among the carriers: two men from Delhi, one from Lahore and one Indian whose surname points to Central Asia. Moreover, there were one man from Sabaz Shahar, Uzbekistan, and a man of unknown (SW or South Asian origin) whose haplotypes fit into the starcluster. Already in 2003 Zerjal et al. had reported "Mongolians" (predominately or exclusively Khalkhas, I suppose), "inner Mongolians" (from a Khalkha-related and/or neighbouring population, I suppose), Uighurs, Gansu Han, Xinjiang Han, Kazakhs from at least two locations, Xibes (Manchu-Tungus), Daurs, Hazaras, Kyrgyz, Evenks, Uzbeks and Hezhens (Manchu-Tungus) belonging to the starcluster. On Taraz (Zhambyl) e.g. the following information is available: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhambyl_Province Side note: lax denominations like "Genghis Khan lineage" are not adequate for scientists. Genghis Khan's real y profile is not known because his corpse was not found. Even if he fit the same profile, he wouldn't need to be the ancestor of any living man carrying the according haplotype. Zerjal et al. 2003: "The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols": ![]() Part of the hg data were mentioned in "Male Demography in East Asia:A North–South Contrast in Human" by Xue et al. 2005, another part in "A Genetic Landscape Reshaped by Recent Events: Y-Chromosomal Insights into Central Asia" by Zerjal et al. 2002 and Hazaras in "Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan" by Qamar et al. 2002: sample: n: n/hg C3: C3(xC3c): Team of: Daurs: 39: 12: 11 (X) Evenks: 26: 14: 7 (X) Gansu Han: 30: 6: 6 (X) Neimeng Han: ? Xinjiang (Yili) Han: 32: 2: 2 (X) Hazara: 23: 7: 7 (Q) Hezhe: 45: 10: 5 (X) Xinjiang Kazakhs: ? Kazakhstani Kazakhs: 38: 28: 4 (Z) Manchus: 35: 9: 8 (X) (Hailar?) Mongols: 45: 21: 17 (X) (Khalkha?) Mongolian: 65: 35: 22 (Z, X) Kazakhstani Uighurs: 33: 6: 5 (Z) Kyrgyz: 41: 8: 3 (Z) Uzbeks: 28: 4: 4 (Z) Xibe: 41: 11: 9 (X) Derenko et al. published their own data in "Distribution of the Male Lineages of Genghis Khan’s Descendants in Northern Eurasian Populations" 2007. The relevant data from this study in this context: sample: n: n/C3: medieval Mongolian starcluster ht: Altaians: 89: 14: 3 Buryats: 217: 148: 5 Altai Kazakhs: 36: 18: 3 Kalmyks: 60: 30: 1 (Khalkha?) Mongols: 46: 26: 16 Tuvans: 108: 10: 2 (Note that the medieval Mongolian starcluster ht is within paragroup C3(xC3c). |
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| ren | Jul 29 2007, 07:41:21 PM Post #2 |
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Advanced Member
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Why does it always say C3(xC3c)? Does that mean it could be C3a or b? It's a shame this lineage is defined by microsat markers. There is also the "Nurhaci gene" from within C3c in this study: Recent Spread of a Y-Chromosomal Lineage in Northern China and Mongolia I guess both the Temujin and Aixingioro clans were C3s. |
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| black man | Aug 1 2007, 11:21:32 AM Post #3 |
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The Right Hand
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To the present-day state of knowledge, "a" is defined by M93 only and "b" by P39 only. M93 seems to be exclusively Japanese and P39 exclusively American. Interestingly, M407 was reported as "C3a2" by Sengupta et al. as if it was downstream to an unknown marker in the "a" branch together with M93. There are also three unreadable "P" markers (probably detected by Hammer et al.) in the "C" branch of the published version of the ftDNA tree from 2005 (the one with the bad resolution). So maybe there is a second big branch within the "C" haplogroup. In any case, M407 was detected by Sengupta et al. in two Yakuts and one Han. This might already imply a relatively wide spread. Btw, M86 (found in most Siberian members of hg C3c) was also never tested in Mongols, AFAIK. It is the hope for spectacular news which makes the researchers not only choose the known but also the potential new SNP markers. Hardly anybody cares about the relationship between Mongols and Siberian peoples but many seem to like reading stories about hypothetic ultra-masculine men of the past. |
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| ren | Aug 1 2007, 08:26:10 PM Post #4 |
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So this isn't the C3 in the Ainu I take it? Or else it would have to be very young if the theory of C3's recent introduction into Ainu is to hol dup. |
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| black man | Aug 2 2007, 02:41:32 AM Post #5 |
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The Right Hand
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No clue. Ainus and pre-Tungus East Siberians were never tested for this marker. But it would have to be an extreme coincidence if Underhill and Sengupta with their small samples accidentally got Japanese descended from Ainus with a lineage derived from the East Siberian Okhotsk people. IMO the trace of M93 will lead to Korea and northeast China. Koreans and NE Han were tested by neither Sengupta nor Underhill. For a regional comparison: Pakendorf et al. found M86, which is downstream marker of one the other branches, in Yukaghirs, Tuvans, Yakuts and Tungus. And Hammer et al. confirmed its presence in Turko-Mongolians, Tungus and Japanese.
According to the paper, there were only two men from (formerly) Manchu-speaking populations in this cluster, one Xibe and one Manchu. Although they tested 61 Y-STRs for the network, the same ethno-specific haplotypes were detected in most of the Hezhes, Oroqens and Evenks. Only the (Mongolian) Mongols and Oroqens had more than two haplotypes within the cluster. Interesting in this context are also the Y-SNPs tested: Xue, Zerjal et al. found M48 in all samples of the cluster. But they did not test for M86, which is downstream to M48. However, M86 was tested by Hammer, Karafet et al. in their Oroqen, Mongolian and Evenk samples, where M86 was even found at a higher frequency than in Xue's samples. Since both markers seem to be almost equivalent, the chances are not bad that the men in this STR cluster have the marker M86, too. M86 was so far mostly tested in northern (Siberian) populations. In the East the southernmost population in which it was found are to my knowledge the Kyushuites and Shikokuites of Hammer's sample. Neither M48 nor M86 were detected in the Han and Koreans checked by Hammer's (M86), Xue's (M48) and Katoh's (M48) teams. Kharkov's Russian team detected M77, one further marker in this haplogroup, in one Altaian from Kulada. The exact relationship between M77 and the two above mentioned markers (upstream or downstream) is unknown. All three together were apparently detected in 10 men from "Central Asia and Siberia" of Underhill's table from 2000. Zakharov 2010: A Search for a "Genghis Khan" Chromosome http://www.maik.ru/abstract/geneng/10/geneng9_10p1130abs.htm
Edited by black man, Sep 30 2010, 02:40:39 PM.
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