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y hg C; origins and spread
Topic Started: Oct 22 2006, 05:02:14 AM (1,020 Views)
Maju
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sorgina
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It seems C3 does exist in Asia (and even in Europe):

Quote:
 
The successful C3 lineage is believed to have originated in southeast or central Asia, spreading from there into northern Asia and the Americas. C3 is also found in low concentrations in eastern and central Europe, where it may represent evidence of the westward expansion of the Huns in the early middle ages.


From: Comentary on hap. C - ISOGG tree

FamilytreeDNA has 6 cases with that haplotype, two of them from Philippines, one from Germany (and the other are not specified but would seem of Euro ancestry by surnames).

Quote:
 
C3 is estimated to be around 11K years old.


This makes me think... how are such age estimations made? Please open a new topic for the answer, thanks.
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black man
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As for median-joining networks, see:

Fig. 3 in Redd et al. 2002: nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/zdownload/papers/CurrentBiology.pdf (hg C in general)
Zegura et al. 2004, Fig.4: mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/vol21/issue1/images/large/mbev-21-01-19-f04.jpeg (hg C3)
Zerjal et al. 2003, fig.1:
Posted Image

Xue et al. 2005, fig. 2:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/jour...2918/42918.html (C3c)

-----

so far, the subhaplogroups seem to be restricted to the following specific regions:
C1: Japan
C2: Melanesia, Polynesia
C3a-M93: one Japanese (Sengupta et al. '06)
C3b-P39: North America
C3c-M48: mostly North Asia
C3d-M407: two Yakuts (Sengupta et al. '06); Turks and Mongols (Malyarchuk et al. 2010)
C-M347: Australia, according to the information at "isogg.org"
C-M356: South Asia

-------------------------

Maju,Oct 22 2006
05:02 AM
FamilytreeDNA has 6 cases with that haplotype, two of them from Philippines, one from Germany (and the other are not specified but would seem of Euro ancestry by surnames).

More about the German lineage:

http://www.german-dna.net/Germany%20Projec...oup%20-%20C.htm
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/g/germany/pats.html

Quote:
 
This makes me think... how are such age estimations made? Please open a new topic for the answer, thanks.


As far as I know, STR markers ("DYS...") are used. Based on an estimated mutation rate (which is higher than that of SNP markers), a time frame is calculated for minimum and maximum ages of a lineage. The more markers you test, the more exact will be the results.
Edited by black man, Aug 24 2010, 04:48:43 PM.
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Maju
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sorgina
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Thanks, Black Man. Very interesting materials.

It would seem that it's not C3 but C3b which is exclussive of Native Americans. It would also seem that C as a whole, being so old, has been travelling (in subgroups) with other "descendant" Eurasian haplogroups.

Reagrding age estimations, I asked because I know that the margins of error for them are usually brutal, so maybe the 11Kyrs estimation that Ren mentioned has a margin of error of even 5-10Kyrs. I find curious that while the margins of error are so wide people ofen only mentions the median date like a (more or less) unquestionable data.

Anyhow I wanted to learn more but it seems it's a very specialized matter.
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black man
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Quote:
 
It would seem that it's not C3 but C3b which is exclussive of Native Americans. It would also seem that C as a whole, being so old, has been travelling (in subgroups) with other "descendant" Eurasian haplogroups.


The problem with the downstream markers is still that they have not been tested for vast regions. AFAIK, P39 was never tested for Asia, M93 appeared only in two, three or four studies. The only subbranch of C3 which is relatively well known is C3c-M48. Maybe P39 will even turn out to be upstream to the two others.

Fact is that M93, M38 (C2?), M48 and M8 (C1) cannot be upstream or downstream to each other because they were all tested in Underhill's paper from 2000. Furthermore, M86 was recently shown to be a downstream marker to C3c-M48.

Quote:
 
Reagrding age estimations, I asked because I know that the margins of error for them are usually brutal, so maybe the 11Kyrs estimation that Ren mentioned has a margin of error of even 5-10Kyrs. I find curious that while the margins of error are so wide people ofen only mentions the median date like a (more or less) unquestionable data.


THe lineages are maybe much older but maybe seem to be relatively young due to very ancient bottleneck effects. The age estimate for C1-M8 in the paper of Hammer et al. is maybe an example: C1 is absent fromt he continent and generally rare in Japan but pops on on Shikoku with a significant percentage. Although C1 cannot be associated with the modern Japanese mainstream (Yayoi age descendants), one is still clueless from where concretely it could have arrived (Korean or Taiwanese direction). No non-Japanese neighbour population carries a haplogroup very close to it. In comparison to D2, C1 appears to be young. But that doesn't prove that it did not share the entire history of D2 in the Japanese archipelago.
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Maju
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sorgina
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Ok. Thanks again for your comments: it seems there are things we know and things we don't about C haplogroups. Studies are so far not complete enough to clear up all doubts.

For what you say there's still the possibility that American C3b (P39) could be older than than other C3 subgroups, right?

Isn't there the possibility that C3b has not been detected in Eurasia because test have not been performed for the P39 marker? Of course the mutation could have happened in Beringia (or the Aleut islands, if they followed the coastal route)...

Regarding C1, this haplogroup has three markers (M8, M105 and M131), what I understand (not sure if correctly) as 3 successive mutations. All extant C1 (I understand) have the three mutations but it's obvious that at some point in the past, there must have been people that only had the oldest of them (M8?). I wonder if the estimated age of the lineage is related with one of these mutations and, if so, with which one: the oldest or the most recent one?

Let's see if I can explain... Let's assume that M8 is the oldest mutation and M131 the most recent one. If the age of haplogroup C1 is estimated by M131, it may happen to seem young... but if it's estimated by M8 it should be older (even if all living descendants have also the most recent mutation). Wouldn't then be two (or even three) ages for C1? A recent age for C1-M8+M105+M131 an oldest age for C1-M8 (without the other markers) and an intermediate one for C1-M8+M105 (without M131). Does this make any sense? :unsure:
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black man
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Quote:
 
For what you say there's still the possibility that American C3b (P39) could be older than than other C3 subgroups, right?

Isn't there the possibility that C3b has not been detected in Eurasia because test have not been performed for the P39 marker?


That is exactly what I wrote above. P39 was tested together with M48 in American populations, M48 having not been detected. I.e. M48 cannot be upstream to C3b-P39 because the carriers of P39 would have had to carry the other mutation, too, which isn't the case. But P39 not having been tested for populations with carriers of M48, it's still possible that all carriers of M48 also carry P39.

Quote:
 
Of course the mutation could have happened in Beringia (or the Aleut islands, if they followed the coastal route)...


Which is a region strongly inclined to genetic drift but not to many mutational events because the population sizes are naturally quite limited.

Quote:
 
Regarding C1, this haplogroup has three markers (M8, M105 and M131), what I understand (not sure if correctly) as 3 successive mutations. All extant C1 (I understand) have the three mutations but it's obvious that at some point in the past, there must have been people that only had the oldest of them (M8?).


One of them, yes, that's probable.

Quote:
 
I wonder if the estimated age of the lineage is related with one of these mutations and, if so, with which one: the oldest or the most recent one?


Not even with the most recent one, I think, because there is the possibility that the number of carriers of C1 had been either severely reduced or kept at a low number due to drift or new (social) environmental factors. In any case, age estimates for C1 were higher than those for D2 in one of the "batwing" analyses. But as far as I understood the paper of Hammer et al., C1 expanded later. The explanation of Hammer et al. for the apparently later expansion of C1 carriers is that they had always been a minority.

I cannot judge the worth of the different methods of age estimation but one thing for sure: no less than 88 D2 chromosomes and only 14 M8 chromosomes were used by Hammer et al.. This could also explain the relatively low estimated age of C1.

Quote:
 
Let's see if I can explain... Let's assume that M8 is the oldest mutation and M131 the most recent one. If the age of haplogroup C1 is estimated by M131, it may happen to seem young... but if it's estimated by M8 it should be older (even if all living descendants have also the most recent mutation). Wouldn't then be two (or even three) ages for C1? A recent age for C1-M8+M105+M131 an oldest age for C1-M8 (without the other markers) and an intermediate one for C1-M8+M105 (without M131). Does this make any sense? unsure.gif


As far as I remember, there was already such a study in which the lineage of a downstream marker appeared to be older than that of the paragroup. But it should be kept in mind that a paragroup [e.g. "C(xC3)"] is not a haplogroup in the narrow sense but only the non-classified "rest" of a bigger haplogroup. In order to get the age of hg C, you'll have to use samples from as many different subhaplogroups as possible.
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Maju
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Ok. Thanks a lot. I think you have clarified all that can be. For the remaining doubts, I guess only time and further studies will tell.
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manju
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Continuing from;
http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.ph...570&st=60&#last

C5 is also observed among Irula tribe.

From the table posted by Ren;
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/data/0702928104/DC1/2

C* frequency(considering the biggest sample study):
Australia - 10%
PNG coast - 3%
WNG lowlands - 4.5%
SEA - 3.4%
India - 0.3%
EA - 0.6%
NEA - 0.5%
Siberia - 8.6%

There was a study that found Indian C* and Australian C* donot belong to the same subclades. I couldn't find it in the forum (Search feature is not working).

I still wonder why C couldn't spread from north-east Asia/Siberia to other regions.
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black man
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manju
Oct 31 2007, 05:57 PM
I still wonder why C couldn't spread from north-east Asia/Siberia to other regions.

It probably spread from there to America. But a major factor against back migration into more southern regions of Asia was cultural over-specialisation. Another weak point was that the frozen earth makes it hard to gain profit from the natural resources. When in cultural contact with the south, NE Siberians were almost automatically predominately receivers.
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ren
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haruka00
Nov 26 2007, 02:49 PM
it is common in the negritos of the philippines and papuans.

Sources?
Until you provide sources for your claims, your posts will be moved to the Wild Speculation/Half-Assing section into your "Austric" topic.

Your posts lack self-consistent logic, or are non-factual, or simply contradict your own sources, throwing out a wild jumble of non-facts in 1 or 2 lines of incomplete sentences, which distracts the topics and pollute the forum. That's unacceptable behavior in any forum, since it is consciously meant to be a form of trolling with repetitive proclaimations despite evidence to the contrary of the claims.

From now on, posts you make which are not factual will be automatically moved to your "Austric" thread in the "Wild Speculation/Half-Assing" section (link), without warning or replies. If the behavior still continues, you will be warned. When the warning reaches 100%, you'll be put under mod preview. If you still persist in errant behavior after that, you will be banned.
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ren
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manju
Oct 31 2007, 05:57 PM
Continuing from;
http://z6.invisionfree.com/man/index.ph...570&st=60&#last

C5 is also observed among Irula tribe.

From the table posted by Ren;
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/data/0702928104/DC1/2

C* frequency(considering the biggest sample study):
Australia - 10%
PNG coast - 3%
WNG lowlands - 4.5%
SEA - 3.4%
India - 0.3%
EA - 0.6%
NEA - 0.5%
Siberia - 8.6%

There was a study that found Indian C* and Australian C* donot belong to the same subclades. I couldn't find it in the forum (Search feature is not working).

I still wonder why C couldn't spread from north-east Asia/Siberia to other regions.

C* (xC3) has also been observed in high amounts in a Yao sample of Hammer's Japan study. Perhaps the new C6 lineage refers to a C branch found in SE Asia.
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Maju
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Karafet 2008:

While there are no major rearrangements within the C clade, three new subclades—designated C4, C5, and C6—have been defined. These subclades are geographically restricted to Australia, South and Central Asia, and New Guinea, respectively.

Hence it seems to be a New Guinea clade, in addition to the already known C2. Probably most of the coastal/lowland C* mentioned above. I have no idea why the new draft tree says C6 is a recently recognized group whose geographical associations were not reported, as it seems in contradiction with Karafet's paper.
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