| Male lineages in East Eurasia | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 19 2005, 03:00:32 PM (597 Views) | |
| qrasy | Jul 19 2005, 03:00:32 PM Post #1 |
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ဥတ္တမ
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It seems that M122 is Chinese Y-gene? How about the other on the picture of East Asia? |
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iy•ɨʉ•ɯu||ɪʏ•ɪ̈ʊ̈•ʊ||eø•ɘɵ•ɤo||e̞ø̞•ə•ɤ̞o̞||ɛœ•ɜɞ•ʌɔ||æɐ||aɶ•ä•ɑɒ m•ɱ•n̪•n••ɳ•ɲ•ŋ•ɴ ɸβ•fv•θð•ʃʒ•ʂʐ ŋ̍ m̩ n̩ ʰːˑ ɐ̆ɕʑ | |
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| ren | Jul 19 2005, 08:51:17 PM Post #2 |
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。 Edited by ren, Feb 15 2012, 03:16:47 AM.
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| qrasy | Jul 23 2005, 05:50:08 AM Post #3 |
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ဥတ္တမ
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![]() O: definitely East Asians C: confusing in East Asian, Australian, Pacifics North Amerind? (more than half of Mongols and Australians?) R: Dracida and Cameroon? R1a, R1b: commonly found in Europeans? K: Australian, Han Chinese, Uygurs? N: Siberians? E: Africans? ![]() M119, M122, M268: Descendants of M175 M89, M45 where do they come from? M231: another name of "N"? ![]() Some of the 'others' seems K or C-type Y-chromosome. Are they really Australoids? Mongolians are more than 50% Australoid? Or does it mean Australoid and Mongoloid share same Ancestor? Usually Y-gene of Mongoloid closer to Caucasoid or Australoid? ![]() How would it be if we keep expanding upwards to "worldwide Adam"? Are there any 'direct' descendants of him? (the closest Y-gene) |
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iy•ɨʉ•ɯu||ɪʏ•ɪ̈ʊ̈•ʊ||eø•ɘɵ•ɤo||e̞ø̞•ə•ɤ̞o̞||ɛœ•ɜɞ•ʌɔ||æɐ||aɶ•ä•ɑɒ m•ɱ•n̪•n••ɳ•ɲ•ŋ•ɴ ɸβ•fv•θð•ʃʒ•ʂʐ ŋ̍ m̩ n̩ ʰːˑ ɐ̆ɕʑ | |
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| ren | Jul 23 2005, 01:27:14 PM Post #4 |
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It's important not to explicitly assign lineages to populations. And one post is insufficient to explain or understand the complex phylogeny and population history that stretches over 200,000 years (~50,000 years out of Africa) of Modern human history. It's confusing but it will be clear with the acquisition of knowledge step by step slowly. Here is a phylogeny breakdown for starts: ![]()
M89/F is the ancestor of most Eurasians. It led to M45/P and M214/O. O*/M214 led to M175/O.
It seems, although "M231" usually would refer to only those with just the M231 mutation whereas "N" would usually refer to all of M231 and its branchings.
K is actually the ancestor of many lineages all across the world. The K you see probably is the "unchanged" version without further mutations that necessitated further nomenclature, but K most likely developed in the Middle East or India and long long time ago, before advent of modern racial differences.
The population loosely termed "Mongoloids" would be a combination of ~a southern (Austric) wave coming up along the coast from southeastern Asia ~and a people coming up into Central Asia from southwestern Asia and then turning east into Siberia.
As I said, you can't really assign broad lineages to races. The K in Australia is actually the ancestor of R in Europe. The question is not really answerable for complex reasons.
The most ancient lineages (A and are usually found in East Africa and southern Africa.
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| qrasy | Jul 24 2005, 05:51:26 AM Post #5 |
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It seems that 'Mongoloid' does not mean anything at all. Didn't you forget about the American Indians (also considered Mongoloids)? Mongoloid1: South West Asian Siberian etc. mostly have N-type Y-gene Mongoloid2: South East Asian Vietnamese etc. mostly have O-type Y-gene C-type also common among them. So how can they share some characteristics? Did they evolve to the same race by survive under similar condition? Or they mix to become one new race? |
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iy•ɨʉ•ɯu||ɪʏ•ɪ̈ʊ̈•ʊ||eø•ɘɵ•ɤo||e̞ø̞•ə•ɤ̞o̞||ɛœ•ɜɞ•ʌɔ||æɐ||aɶ•ä•ɑɒ m•ɱ•n̪•n••ɳ•ɲ•ŋ•ɴ ɸβ•fv•θð•ʃʒ•ʂʐ ŋ̍ m̩ n̩ ʰːˑ ɐ̆ɕʑ | |
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| ren | Jul 24 2005, 02:00:31 PM Post #6 |
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"Mongoloid" is a term used in physical anthropology. It refers to a physical type, actually an osteological type. It's actually the most easily definable osteological type (race), as far as I know, since it's the only population with a specialized dental complex, Sinodonty. You shouldn't equate physical types with lineages, just as you shouldn't confuse a surname with a race. For example, an Englishman might be R1b, which is more related to O than to his cousin's E3b, which is more related to a Nigerian's E1. Lineage % in a population can become distorted, especially when we were hunter-gatherers in small numbers. It's like how so many Chinese have surnames "Wang", "Zhang", and "Li". Since a surname, like a lineage, is only passed down from a father to a son, it becomes distorted over time. It doesn't mean all of your ancestors on both sides were of "Wang". These people you talk about were most likely a single population that expanded from Siberia. Whether and how much different waves contributed to this population is impossible to clarify at this point. |
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| qrasy | Jul 25 2005, 11:17:47 AM Post #7 |
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Single population from Siberia is the most dominant term in most of Mongoloids? Actually are 2 waves you described are the source of mixed Mongoloids? (referring to Central Asians and Indonesians) |
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iy•ɨʉ•ɯu||ɪʏ•ɪ̈ʊ̈•ʊ||eø•ɘɵ•ɤo||e̞ø̞•ə•ɤ̞o̞||ɛœ•ɜɞ•ʌɔ||æɐ||aɶ•ä•ɑɒ m•ɱ•n̪•n••ɳ•ɲ•ŋ•ɴ ɸβ•fv•θð•ʃʒ•ʂʐ ŋ̍ m̩ n̩ ʰːˑ ɐ̆ɕʑ | |
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| qrasy | Aug 3 2005, 04:28:19 AM Post #8 |
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ဥတ္တမ
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OK. Let's get out of discussing paternal lineage. How about the maternal lineages of East & Southeast Asian people? Do you have the pictures of distributions, 'sisters' and 'mothers' of a specific mtDNA? (like the ones you have for Y-gene)? |
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iy•ɨʉ•ɯu||ɪʏ•ɪ̈ʊ̈•ʊ||eø•ɘɵ•ɤo||e̞ø̞•ə•ɤ̞o̞||ɛœ•ɜɞ•ʌɔ||æɐ||aɶ•ä•ɑɒ m•ɱ•n̪•n••ɳ•ɲ•ŋ•ɴ ɸβ•fv•θð•ʃʒ•ʂʐ ŋ̍ m̩ n̩ ʰːˑ ɐ̆ɕʑ | |
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| ren | Aug 3 2005, 02:12:23 PM Post #9 |
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No, this is way before any of this. I'm talking about the earliest presence of moderns in Siberia, which is 50,000 years ago. Modern races did not exist then. Central Asians are a "recent" phenomenon, a mix of Altaic and Indo-Europeans peoples,w hile Indonesians are also a recent phenomenon, a mixture of neolithic farmers from China with the true aboriginals of SE Asia. Osteologically "Mongoloid" likely developed between 50,000-15,000 in very northerly climes, irregardless of what components they had, and expanded west and south to mix with others. This later "mixture" is not the first two waves I was talking about.
The first 3 pages are Y chromosome but starting from the fifth page, you'll mtDNA distribution and after, on page 6, a simplified branching: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf It is very complicated and you might not see some important patterns but it's a start. Trees: http://www.genome.org/content/vol14/issue1...9-03f1a_1o.jpeg http://www.genome.org/content/vol14/issue1...9-03f1b_1o.jpeg http://www.genome.org/content/vol14/issue1...29-03f2_1o.jpeg |
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| qrasy | Aug 4 2005, 10:23:35 AM Post #10 |
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ဥတ္တမ
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Ok, the picture in there is analogous to this picture:![]() But I want to see shorter-ranged maps like these: ![]() ![]() ![]() By the way expert's explanation is often very confusing to newbies.
In short: mtDNA+Y-gene tests only consider female and male 'ultra ancestors', and disregard father's mother and mother's father. The 'ultra ancestors' actually only contribute a very small part of the autosomal genes (corresponds to body shape), which make lineages not reliable at all to express population/race. Is that right? |
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iy•ɨʉ•ɯu||ɪʏ•ɪ̈ʊ̈•ʊ||eø•ɘɵ•ɤo||e̞ø̞•ə•ɤ̞o̞||ɛœ•ɜɞ•ʌɔ||æɐ||aɶ•ä•ɑɒ m•ɱ•n̪•n••ɳ•ɲ•ŋ•ɴ ɸβ•fv•θð•ʃʒ•ʂʐ ŋ̍ m̩ n̩ ʰːˑ ɐ̆ɕʑ | |
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are usually found in East Africa and southern Africa.