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Paleo-Asiatic influences on the Korean language
Topic Started: Jan 1 2006, 03:30:17 PM (53 Views)
cydevil
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Firstly, I would like to start off by making it clear that I'm making this post totally out of my head, because I'm not in Korea at the moment, with no access to any primary or secondary sources. So I may get specific terminologies or historical facts wrong. And the new information regarding this "Paleo-Asiatic influence" is something I read off an article, something I haven't been able to cross-match with other sources.

Let me first explain the mainstream perspective regarding the Korean language, culture and peopling of ancient Korea. The mainstream Korean historians view the Korean language as an Altaic language. From the mainstream perspective, there is no question that the paleolithic people were exterminated before the arrivals of neolithics. The neolithic people who first inhabited Korea were the paleo-asiatics(paleo-siberians) whose major archeological basis is combed/Julmun pottery(I think that's what it was called in English..). These people expanded throughout the whole Eurasia. Later bronze age migrations are defined by the Mumun pottery(I think) and bipa-style swords. These people are designated as "Yemaek" or "Ancient Chosun". There is also a supergroup that included the Yemaeks who are called the "Dongyi", defined by dolmen distributions around the Yellow Sea basin. Let me post some pics along with some explanations to help you understand.

http://imgnews.naver.com/image/078/2004/05...ade7b10327287eehttp://imgnews.naver.com/image/078/2004/05...ade7b10327287ee

1. Green area designates the Dongyi, 2. Pink area designates Ancient Chosun, 3. the dog-looking thingie designates nothern style dolmens, 4. and the triangular shape designates bipa-style swords.

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The left is the bipa-style sword. The right is an evolution from this sword, the narrow sword. The narrower version is claimed to be more lethal than its precedent, and it is found in the Korean peninsula, the RFE region and Japan.

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This is a northern style dolmen near Seoul.

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Another northern style dolmen in Liaoning. The area which is now Liaoning province is seen as the early cultural epicenter of Yemaeks. Later cultural epicenter is seen as Pyongyang.

While many Korean historians like to see Ancient Chosun as a state-level society, this does not seem to be very well accepted by international scholars. Also, Korean scholars like to interpret Dongyi as a coherent ethnic group, but this too seems to be not so well taken, though cultural affiliation does not seem to be disputed. Dolmens are divided into two types, the northern-type and the southern-type. From the mainstream perspective, the southern-type was derived(evolved) from the northern-type. There are two theories regarding the origin of Korea's bronze culture, one originating from Siberia, and the other originating from the Shang bronze culture. The former is far more dominant and is the mainstream theory.

As for the modern peopling of Korea, there are three theories:

1. Replacement theory - Bronze age populations(Yemaek) exterminated the neolithic populations(paleosiberian).
2. Integration theory - Bronze age populations mixed with the neolithic populations.
3. Indigenous origins theory - Neolithic populations naturally advanced to the bronze age, i.e. there were no further migrations.

Out of these three, the first one was more dominant, but the third one is also gaining ground(or the second one, can't really remember).

Now, the language. Mainstream thought is that the Yemaek spoke an Altaic language, from which the modern Korean language is from. However, two Korean experts on the Altaic language group challenged this mainstream thought that the Korean language has an Altaic superstrata over a paleoasiatic substrata. Their basis is a comparative study between Korean and another paleoasiatic language, the Gilyak language.

My guess is that this new perspective on the Korean language supports the integration theory, that the bronze age populations mixed with the neolithic populations. I'm also aware of the anthropological perspective on the Dangun myth(the founding myth of Koreans) that what it really tells is that technologically superior sky/bird-worshipping people exterminating the tiger-worshipping people while intregrating with the bear-worshipping people. From this, I have several inquiries.

1. Was bear worshipping a cultural trait of paleoasiatics?
2. What about sky/bird worshipping for Altaics(ducks and ravens to be more specific)?
3. Any guess on tiger totems?
4. Any other linguistic studies regarding paleoasiatic/Altaic mixture of the Korean language?
5. Is Gilyak language even paleoasatic? Is there such a term as a paleoasiatic language?
6. How do genetic analyses fit into this theory? Any genetic data on Gilyak-speaking people?

Any input will be appreciated.
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ren
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I'll update with citation from primary lit. as I go.
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1. Was bear worshipping a cultural trait of paleoasiatics?

Bear worshipping is a cultural trait of Ainu (and perhaps Gilyak). It really depends on what you mean by "Paleoasiatics", as this is and was a loose term.

The majority view from osteology/physical anthropology is now that the Ainu/Jomon have their origins in southern Asia, and their pottery is linked to southern China.

The genetics side established the Ainu as having an ultimately southern origin, as their male lineages are entirely of C and D, the roots of which can be traced to India/Australia and the Andaman Islands respectively. On the female side, they share either lineages in common with Siberians and East Asians or M7, which is found more in the south of Asia, now at least.

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2. What about sky/bird worshipping for Altaics(ducks and ravens to be more specific)?

The earliest evidence of sky/bird worshipping are of the people in Ma'lta (?) (near the Altai Mt.) 15,000 years ago (ducks): http://journeyofman.info/index.php?showtopic=222
^(The site the post links to seems to be down but I hope I have enough info in the post for you.)

Many modern Siberians and Native Americans of the NW have the raven as a totem.
The Altaic speakers have the wolf as their totem as far as I know.

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3. Any guess on tiger totems?

None from me.

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4. Any other linguistic studies regarding paleoasiatic/Altaic mixture of the Korean language?

Don't know any although Korean is regarded as being very liekly related to Altaic, though it can't be sufficiently proven on linguistic classification standards.

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5. Is Gilyak language even paleoasatic? Is there such a term as a paleoasiatic language?

I think it's considered "paleoasiatic", as in a language isolate, widespread at one point, which was swamped by later expansions.

There is no proven connection between paleoasiatic languages. They are just language isolates that are postulated as having a wider range before expansion of certain populations.

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6. How do genetic analyses fit into this theory? Any genetic data on Gilyak-speaking people?

On the genetics side, Korean has the largest % of D carriers besides Japan and Tibet. This relationship is also seen ont he female side, as only these three laces have the M12 lineage.

I'm aware of no studies especially connecting any of the "paleoasiatic" language speakers with Korea. And I'm aware of no specific studies on the Gilyak but I'll post anything on them in studies on Siberians/East Asians I come across.
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cydevil
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Your input is much appreciated ren.

As far as I can remember, there was also an indigenous raised-pattern pottery culture on the southern tip of the Korean peninsula contemporary with paleosiberian expansions from the north. That culture had close relations with Jomon pottery culture in western Japan of the times. I also remember that paleolithic people were a whale-hunting sea faring people who migrated along the coasts to the Korean peninsula. Without sources in hand however, I'm unable to check if this raised-pattern pottery culture is related to the paleolithic people.

In that case, I think it is much more likely that the Dangun myth describes integration of the Jomon-like indigenous people and neolithic/bronze age expansions from the north. As for the neolithic/bronze-age migrations however, I'm not so sure. Perhaps the neolithics developed into bronze age without major migrations? I read in Gina Barnes book, "Introduction to Archeology of East Asia" that distribution of the neolithic populations in China(not Korea) are similar to the distribution of the subsequent bronze age populations - Huaxia in central China, Dongyi on the northeastern coasts, and Miao in the Yangtze River valley. I'm wondering what's your thought on this? And what do you think about this proposed connection between the Dongyi-people(bronze age) on the eastern coasts of China and the contemporary bronze age people in Liaoning/Korean peninsula?

I would also love to learn more about this duck totem in the Malta region. I will really appreciate it if you can provide me with a specific term where I can further expand my search.

I'll upload pics of certain types of totems that survived to modern day Korea.

Sotdae/¼Ú´ë(mostly ducks, ravens in some areas)

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Jangsung/Àå½Â(there are also stone variations)

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black man
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cydevil
Jan 1 2006, 03:30 PM
5. Is Gilyak language even paleoasatic? Is there such a term as a paleoasiatic language?
6. How do genetic analyses fit into this theory? Any genetic data on Gilyak-speaking people?

Any input will be appreciated.

"Gilyak" is called Nivkh today. Like many small minorities in North Asia, they have a very reduced genetic diversity. Nivkhs did have a contact zone with Ainus, but not with Koreans. Their mtDNA is very specific (lots of hg Y) and does not show any (known) particular similarity with the Korean one. The Nivkhs' southern neighbours are different Tungusified tribes. The origins of these Amur tribes is still partly unclear. According to archaeology, they must have resided there for a very long time.

Anyway, maybe you can find something Korean-related in one of those links:
http://www.fegi.ru/PRIMORYE/HISTORY/hist.htm
http://sati.archaeology.nsc.ru/gen-i/virtual/Amur/amur.htm
http://sati.archaeology.nsc.ru/gen-i/Virtual/Amur/plots_.htm

maternal ancestry:

I favour Korean mtDNA as a starting point for discussion. Tanaka's paper about the peopling of Japan mentioned that the diversity of the CZ hg reaches its peak in Korea. (Naturally, northern Korean data will have to be added to complete the picture. I'm only referring to the data available to me so far.) So Korea and/or the neighbouring Chinese territory were possibly one major source of migrations to the rest of East Asia. I associate the spread of CZ with the modern East Asian, broad-flat-faced type of people, which becomes relatively rare in southern and western China.

Nevertheless, the fact that CZ itself is not very frequent in Korea should not be ignored. Therefore, I suppose it was accompanied wit DG on its way "out of Korea/NE China". Then, still being accompanied by D, it spread along the Huanghe and later into southern and western China. Those people who took the migration route into Siberia had already an elevated percentage of CZ. This also speaks for a partly Siberian origin of certain Turkic-speaking tribes, btw. <= And there you have sort of a genetic connection between Koreans and "Altaics". But why are Koreans so different from "Altaics"? Because they have, at least partly, different paternal ancestors.

paternal ancestry:

As for the interpretation of the rest (i.e. non-mtDNA) of the available Korean genetic data, samples from North Korea are even more necessary. My hypothesis is that northern Koreans carry more "C3" than southern Koreans, who have an intermediate frequency of it. The same trend can be observed in China from south to north (Han: very few C3; Manchu: intermediate frequency; Tungus: high frequency of C3).

C3 is mainly carried by peoples which have an origin in East Siberia. Possibly, it was once also spread further in the south, but there it's now more or less irrelevant. East Siberians speak several distinct languages, most of which are isolates. Moreover, most main Mongolic and Tungusic populations predominately consist of C3 carriers. So there is no clear linguistic connection between C3 carriers. But regarding phenotype, I'd say there is a stronger similarity between North Koreans and East Siberians than between South Koreans and East Siberians. Thus, I conclude there must be at least a biological continuum from southern Korea to East Siberia. C3 cannot exclude this hypothesis, but only confirm it to a more or less significant degree.

In other words: I think that Korean genesis can only be explained with the help of more data about northern Koreans. Further, the data about other regional Korean populations will be necessary in order to identify the different components which make up Korean gene pool and mainstream culture. Obviously, there was lots of ethnic mixing on the prehistoric Korean peninsula. And now there are missing links, especially between Koreans and their western/southern neighbours.
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cydevil
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Thank you for your input black man.

With regards to the mix of haplotype C(this is what you're talking about, right?) among Korean Y-chromosomes, I always assumed that they might have interbred to a limited extent when proto-Korean tribes were in their vicinity in Siberia. Is this not a possible scenario?

And there are a lot of North Koreans defectors who now reside in South Korea, and new arrivals come quite often. They're all processed through one institution called "Hanawon", so if one is determined enough, I believe it won't be too hard to do some genetic analysis on a limited sample of North Koreans.
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black man
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cydevil
Jan 2 2006, 11:10 AM
Thank you for your input black man.

With regards to the mix of haplotype C(this is what you're talking about, right?) among Korean Y-chromosomes, I always assumed that they might have interbred to a limited extent when proto-Korean tribes were in their vicinity in Siberia. Is this not a possible scenario?

I was talking about both mtDNA and y-chromosomal hgs "C".

As for the y-chromosome, there is no evidence of mixing between proto-Koreans and Siberians, yet. A more detailed examination of the markers would be necessary.

Even more crucial is the question what can be considered proto-Korean: the northern ("Tungus"-associated), the western ("Sinitic"-associated), the southern ("Austronesian"-associated) or an "unknown" element in Koreans' present-day composition...or the earliest evidence of its mix? The answer should be based on detailed historical reasearch and will probably vary from region to region.

I once read that only the southwesternmost tip of the Korean peninsula can be clearly associated with "Austronesian" influence. Then there is a strong Sinitic influence in other regions. Northern Korea's shamanism could link it to East Siberia. So, in theory, you could conclude Koreans are "only a mix of several elements".

However, the mtDNA of Koreans rather points at an early split between proto-Koreans and their western neighbours because the latter lack certain ancient mutations. Moreover, the supposed maternal migration route of the CZ lineages is "out of Korea". Since women usually don't migrate anywhere without men, there is also a hypothetic paternal proto-Korean admixture in at least northeastern Han Chinese.

Potential lineages common to proto-Koreans could have been "C3+O3", "C3+O2" and "O2+O3". "C3+O3" would be a combination (of y lineages) also found in the hypothetic proto-Sinitic lineages. "O2+O3" do not occur in NE Asia, but in SE Asia. Common incidence of "C3+O2" would be typical for Koreans and Japanese only.

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And there are a lot of North Koreans defectors who now reside in South Korea, and new arrivals come quite often. They're all processed through one institution called "Hanawon", so if one is determined enough, I believe it won't be too hard to do some genetic analysis on a limited sample of North Koreans.


Indeed, northern Korean data could already have been tested. But maybe it's concretely mentioned in papers in Korean language only. I cannot check that because I do not understand Korean.

In Underhill's paper on p. 9 (309) there is a map with the y hg frequencies of two South Korean samples. Obviously, there is some regional variation. The same is probably true for North Korea. As far as I can judge, there are two main types of northern Koreans, one being closer to central East Asians, the other being closer to East Siberians.

Actually, I do not expect e.g. a Pyongyang sample to be very different from a southern Korean sample. It's rather the rural, local populations which I suppose to have more genetic pecularities in common with East Siberians.

Btw, there is also a difference between the types of shamanism in northern and southern Korea. Are you interested in that, too?
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cydevil
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Quote:
 
I was talking about both mtDNA and y-chromosomal hgs "C".

As for the y-chromosome, there is no evidence of mixing between proto-Koreans and Siberians, yet. A more detailed examination of the markers would be necessary.

Even more crucial is the question what can be considered proto-Korean: the northern ("Tungus"-associated), the western ("Sinitic"-associated), the southern ("Austronesian"-associated) or an "unknown" element in Koreans' present-day composition...or the earliest evidence of its mix? The answer should be based on detailed historical reasearch and will probably vary from region to region.

I once read that only the southwesternmost tip of the Korean peninsula can be clearly associated with "Austronesian" influence. Then there is a strong Sinitic influence in other regions. Northern Korea's shamanism could link it to East Siberia. So, in theory, you could conclude Koreans are "only a mix of several elements".

However, the mtDNA of Koreans rather points at an early split between proto-Koreans and their western neighbours because the latter lack certain ancient mutations. Moreover, the supposed maternal migration route of the CZ lineages is "out of Korea". Since women usually don't migrate anywhere without men, there is also a hypothetic paternal proto-Korean admixture in at least northeastern Han Chinese.

Potential lineages common to proto-Koreans could have been "C3+O3", "C3+O2" and "O2+O3". "C3+O3" would be a combination (of y lineages) also found in the hypothetic proto-Sinitic lineages. "O2+O3" do not occur in NE Asia, but in SE Asia. Common incidence of "C3+O2" would be typical for Koreans and Japanese only.


Hmm.. I'm don't know much about genetics, so I can't really comment much on that. However, with regards to the "out of Korea" concept, please bear in mind that according to Korean historians, Koreans are not from Korea. Location within Asia that Korean historians trace back the origin of Koreans is Liaoning province(the early epicenter of Ancient Chosun). Putting together archaeological data and history from ancient scriptures, Korean historians believe that Koreans were pushed back from Liaoning to Pyongyang(the later epicenter) from Chinese expansion. If there were any outward migrations, I suspect it to be from Liaoning province, not the Korean peninsula. Also, Korean historians believe that the Dongyi cultural sphere, which extends to the eastern coasts of China and the Kyushu island of Japan, have ethnic coherence. In that case, I would put more focus on the Yellow Sea coastal areas than northeastern Han Chinese to look for genetic similarities.

Posted Image

Blue dots are original bipa-style swords and green dots are narrower versions. Korean historians believe distribution of narrower versions, among other archaeological evidence, represents Ancient Chosun's southward retreat.



Quote:
 
And there are a lot of North Koreans defectors who now reside in South Korea, and new arrivals come quite often. They're all processed through one institution called "Hanawon", so if one is determined enough, I believe it won't be too hard to do some genetic analysis on a limited sample of North Koreans.

Indeed, northern Korean data could already have been tested. But maybe it's concretely mentioned in papers in Korean language only. I cannot check that because I do not understand Korean.

In Underhill's paper on p. 9 (309) there is a map with the y hg frequencies of two South Korean samples. Obviously, there is some regional variation. The same is probably true for North Korea. As far as I can judge, there are two main types of northern Koreans, one being closer to central East Asians, the other being closer to East Siberians.

Actually, I do not expect e.g. a Pyongyang sample to be very different from a southern Korean sample. It's rather the rural, local populations which I suppose to have more genetic pecularities in common with East Siberians.


I doubt there was ever a specific test on North Korean populations within South Korea. And yes, I do know that map very well, ren has been posting it everywhere. :lol: Do you happen to know the specific regions where those samples were taken? Or could they be just two samples taken with no specific region in mind? I've always thought those variations to be a fault in its reliability coming from bad sampling. If you ask me, it seems like DNA variations in the entirety of East Asia put in one small peninsula.

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Btw, there is also a difference between the types of shamanism in northern and southern Korea. Are you interested in that, too?


Yes, I'm quite interested. Actually, my maternal side of the family visit shamans very frequently. They're really obsessed about it, including my mother, who also visits a northern-style shaman every month. The most distinguishing feature between the two types is how one becomes a shaman. In northern shamanism, a person needs to be possessed by a spirit and fall ill to become a shaman. They become shamans not of choice, but by the will of the spirits. In my family shaman's case, the guy at first refused but the "spirit" started killing off the people around him, so he was forced to become a shaman. In southern shamanism however, the shaman status is hereditary. To my knowledge(thinking out of my head), northern shamanism involves exctasy rituals, while southern shamanism deals more with astrology-like fortune telling. Of course, northern shamans cost A LOT MORE since they require elaborate rituals and they literally go crazy and all, but a few very famous southern shamans also make a lot of money :) But I don't really know where this northern-southern dichotomy came from because it seems to be that both types are everywhere.

And I have one question about genetics. Do mtDNAs mutate more frequently than Y-chromosomes? Can the two types give us different time scales(like fast-forward and slow-forward) of genetic mutations and expansions?
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ren
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Do any of you have any studies on Korea besides these two: http://journeyofman.info/index.php?showtopic=294 ?
black man
Jan 2 2006, 10:35 AM
Tanaka's paper about the peopling of Japan mentioned that the diversity of the CZ hg reaches its peak in Korea. (Naturally, northern Korean data will have to be added to complete the picture. I'm only referring to the data available to me so far.) So Korea and/or the neighbouring Chinese territory were possibly one major source of migrations to the rest of East Asia.

I myself would place an expansion at a more western/northern region than the Korean peninsula because of the following reasons:
1. The Korean peninsula was connected to the Japanese islands not too long ago, so an expansion from the Korean peninsula would likely have wiped out Ainu/Jomon-like people on its border very early on instead only 2,000 years ago. Jomon-like skeletal remains have also been found in the Korean peninsula, so it's hard to imagine that it was a place of origin of more morphologically specialized/extreme extreme people.

2. The paper, I think, mentioned that Siberia/Mongolia could've had more diversity, but its population size, especially after the swamping/extermination following Russian colonization, might've covered that up. If Koreans are mainly Siberian/Altai-Baikal descended, then they would preserve this diversity best, especially with their larger, highly concentrated population. Northern China, parts of it, is almost as diverse as Korea for the mentioned mtDNA lineages, so that's also another place that's a possible expansion source.
But I would go with the most extreme-looking people and their region as the expansion place, and that is Siberia.

cydevil
Jan 3 2006, 03:52 PM
Also, Korean historians believe that the Dongyi cultural sphere, which extends to the eastern coasts of China and the Kyushu island of Japan, have ethnic coherence.

The Dongyi seems to also have a southern connection, for example, O1/M119 in coastal Shandong and south. There is decent genetic, archaeological, and anthropological evidence for it. The Dongyi seems to have migrated south under pressure from Huaxia, and parts of them could also have migrated to Japan and Korea, bring rice cultivation with them. This would explain why Korea has a form of O2 and SE Asia has a form of O2.

Alternatively, since Korea has the earliest record of rice cultivation (15,000 years ago), O2 might've expanded from there along the coast. The Jomon way of life was stringly established along the Japan coast, so the Japanese islands might've deterred this neolithic rice expansion at its earliest stages.
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cydevil
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Quote:
 
The Dongyi seems to also have a southern connection, for example, O1/M119 in coastal Shandong and south. There is decent genetic, archaeological, and anthropological evidence for it. The Dongyi seems to have migrated south under pressure from Huaxia, and parts of them could also have migrated to Japan and Korea, bring rice cultivation with them. This would explain why Korea has a form of O2 and SE Asia has a form of O2.


Those two are perhaps the only two studies on Y-chromosomes, both by Kim Wuk. The study says that Koreans had southern origins, which can be considered heresy in the Korean historical community. From an extreme historical perspective entirely based on ancient scriptures(i.e. like stories from the bible), Korean tribes formed a "federation" with the Miaos under Chiwoo(Chiyou) to drive back Huangdi's Huaxia expansion in what is now Huabei province. Although Chiwoo won in the Korean version of the story, they were eventually pushed back and those that migrated south became Miaos and those that migrated north became Koreans. My father, who majored in Chinese culture and has a very keen interest in Asian history in general, firmly believes that Koreans and Miaos are closely related from cultural similarities such as eating rice cakes. But I have my doubts because he holds a somewhat extreme version of Korean history as well. This extreme version of history is mostly rejected by Korean historians due to lack of evidence, but Chiwoo does have some meaning to them. By linguistic analysis from Koguryo terminologies(mainly names of kings), it is believed that Chiwoo actually meant "Champion" in general. So from this perspective, Chiwoo is not an individual but an ancient term for champions. It is also mentioned that both Chiwoo's tribes and Koguryo had similar forms of political structure, based on ranks organized by "brothers", i.e. "big brother", "big big brother", "little brother".

Also, if I remember correctly, Tang Dynasty, upon defeating Koguryo, relocated hundreds of thousands of Koguryo people to the southwestern borderlands of China. This could also have contributed to genetic similarities. And a group of Koguryo people rebelled in Shandong province and established a short-lived kingdom, so that also implicates there were relocations to Shandong as well.

As far as I know, dolmens along the eastern coasts of China are regarded as "southern types". Southern-type dolmens, from the mainstream perspective, are seen as derivations, i.e. evolutions, from northern-type dolmens. The distribution of southern-type dolmens reaches its peak in the southwestern province of Jollado(20,000), and it also has distributions along the eastern coasts of China(Jiangsu and Shandong), Jeju Island and Kyushu Island of Japan. According to a minority perspective(the historian who thought Koreans had southern origins from Dravidians in the AF thread), these southern type dolmens are also found throughout the southeast Asian islands such as Indonesia, as well as in the Indian continent in Madras.
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black man
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cydevil
Jan 3 2006, 03:52 PM
Hmm.. I'm don't know much about genetics, so I can't really comment much on that. However, with regards to the "out of Korea" concept, please bear in mind that according to Korean historians, Koreans are not from Korea. Location within Asia that Korean historians trace back the origin of Koreans is Liaoning province(the early epicenter of Ancient Chosun). Putting together archaeological data and history from ancient scriptures, Korean historians believe that Koreans were pushed back from Liaoning to Pyongyang(the later epicenter) from Chinese expansion. If there were any outward migrations, I suspect it to be from Liaoning province, not the Korean peninsula.

Liaoning's original population is naturally a bit difficult to reconstruct, the question being to which degree the present-day population represents recent Sinitic immigrants. Chinese approaches probably exaggerate the percentage of Han immigrants because of the "Zhonghuaminzu" doctrine. Also, much depends on regional studies since urban populations are more likely to be Han-derived than rural ones.

Quote:
 
Also, Korean historians believe that the Dongyi cultural sphere, which extends to the eastern coasts of China and the Kyushu island of Japan, have ethnic coherence. In that case, I would put more focus on the Yellow Sea coastal areas than northeastern Han Chinese to look for genetic similarities.

Posted Image

Blue dots are original bipa-style swords and green dots are narrower versions. Korean historians believe distribution of narrower versions, among other archaeological evidence, represents Ancient Chosun's southward retreat.


In this context time estimates of the proto-Korean paternal expansions would be worthy. I just couldn't find any, yet.

Although southern Korean men often carry the markers of a lineage (O2) which can be associated with the south, their particular subhaplogroup is absent from the south. This could indicate a gene drift. Nevertheless, O2 in Korea could still be older than O-M134 (the allegedly "Chinese" marker).

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I doubt there was ever a specific test on North Korean populations within South Korea. And yes, I do know that map very well, ren has been posting it everywhere.  :lol: Do you happen to know the specific regions where those samples were taken? Or could they be just two samples taken with no specific region in mind? I've always thought those variations to be a fault in its reliability coming from bad sampling. If you ask me, it seems like DNA variations in the entirety of East Asia put in one small peninsula.


The Korean samples I read about were mostly quite big (100 or more men). there was no information about their origin, as far as I can judge. In other studies (e.g. Chinese ones) usually only 20 or 30 samples per region were taken and then pooled. So I suspect the Korean samples to be pooled, too.

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Yes, I'm quite interested. Actually, my maternal side of the family visit shamans very frequently. They're really obsessed about it, including my mother, who also visits a northern-style shaman every month. The most distinguishing feature between the two types is how one becomes a shaman. In northern shamanism, a person needs to be possessed by a spirit and fall ill to become a shaman. They become shamans not of choice, but by the will of the spirits. In my family shaman's case, the guy at first refused but the "spirit" started killing off the people around him, so he was forced to become a shaman. In southern shamanism however, the shaman status is hereditary. To my knowledge(thinking out of my head), northern shamanism involves exctasy rituals, while southern shamanism deals more with astrology-like fortune telling. Of course, northern shamans cost A LOT MORE since they require elaborate rituals and they literally go crazy and all, but a few very famous southern shamans also make a lot of money :) But I don't really know where this northern-southern dichotomy came from because it seems to be that both types are everywhere.


Tae-kon Kim categorises the types of Korean shamanism as follows:
- Mudang: mostly central and northern Korea. practice fortune telling, the full range of rituals, have shrine.
- Dangol: mostly in the south. heriditary. only practice ritual singing ("muga"). no shrine.
- Shimbang: on the island of Cheju. fortune-telling, play the spirits in rituals. no shrine.
- Myongdu: mostly in the south. similar to Mudang, but do not practice all rituals.

Well, I'm only a layman. But nevertheless, my impression is that southern Korean shamanism was under a stronger Sinitic influence, which qualitywise led to the partial decay of shamanism in the south. Christianity and, before it, Confucianism promote a negative attitude towards shamanism.

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And I have one question about genetics. Do mtDNAs mutate more frequently than Y-chromosomes? Can the two types give us different time scales(like fast-forward and slow-forward) of genetic mutations and expansions?


I don't know whether mtDNA mutates more frequently than y-chromosome. But as far as I understood, some haplogroups (both mtDNA and y-chromosomal) mutate quicker than others.
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black man
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ren
Jan 3 2006, 10:33 PM
Do any of you have any studies on Korea besides these two: http://journeyofman.info/index.php?showtopic=294 ?

Korean samples are also included in e.g. Karafet 2001 (about East Asian y.chromosomes in general) or Tanaka's mtDNA paper. Sources about Koreans in particular seem to be generally restricted to editions in Korean language only. The same can be said about Chinese local studies, btw.

I posted one link at your reference thread, but I don't know whether it's valuable since I can't read the Korean text.
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cydevil
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Liaoning's original population is naturally a bit difficult to reconstruct, the question being to which degree the present-day population represents recent Sinitic immigrants. Chinese approaches probably exaggerate the percentage of Han immigrants because of the "Zhonghuaminzu" doctrine. Also, much depends on regional studies since urban populations are more likely to be Han-derived than rural ones.


Yes. In fact, I think this is the major problem with genetic anthropology. What it really does is analyzing modern distributions of genetic markers, and modern distributions can be very different from the past as a result of migrations, displacements and replacements. Another major problem should be that this often leads to racism.

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The Korean samples I read about were mostly quite big (100 or more men). there was no information about their origin, as far as I can judge. In other studies (e.g. Chinese ones) usually only 20 or 30 samples per region were taken and then pooled. So I suspect the Korean samples to be pooled, too.


I think sampling methods need to be more systematic. Samples I have seen in these genetic studies are often biased in sampling methods as well as the number of the samples. Anyways, I recall a Chinese study that found a M214 without M175 mutaions(I think) had Korean samples. If those Korean samples are from ethnic-Koreans in China, then they should be the northernmost Koreans in East Asia(there are also Korean immigrants throughout the former Soviet Union). That could be a possible northern sample of Koreans.

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Tae-kon Kim categorises the types of Korean shamanism as follows:
- Mudang: mostly central and northern Korea. practice fortune telling, the full range of rituals, have shrine.
- Dangol: mostly in the south. heriditary. only practice ritual singing ("muga"). no shrine.
- Shimbang: on the island of Cheju. fortune-telling, play the spirits in rituals. no shrine.
- Myongdu: mostly in the south. similar to Mudang, but do not practice all rituals.

Well, I'm only a layman. But nevertheless, my impression is that southern Korean shamanism was under a stronger Sinitic influence, which qualitywise led to the partial decay of shamanism in the south. Christianity and, before it, Confucianism promote a negative attitude towards shamanism.


Again, please bear in mind that I currently have no access to primary nor secondary sources, and whatever I'm writing here is either out of my head or from unconfirmed internet sources. Anyways, I did do a brief search on Kim Taegon, and I've found a reader's comment on his book that his two-book series on Korean Shamanism is "the most extensive field research so far". His work is cited in various sources.

I also found an interesting fact. As you may be aware, a lot of Korean words are sinicized loanwords made up of Chinese characters. Dangol is a native word(i.e. not represented by Chinese characters), and in many unconfirmed sources, they mention that Dangol is the native word for Shamanism.* Interesting thing that caught my attention is that in the word "Mudang", "Mu" is a Chinese character, while "Dang" isn't. Also, Dangol is called "Danggol" or "Danggola" in other regions. Korea's legendary founder, whom Korean historians believe to be a general term for shaman kings, is Dangun. So wouldn't be possible that Dan or Dang stood for something about Shamanism? Or perhaps that Dangun is a sinitic translation of this native word? According to an unconfirmed and radical perspective, this "Dang" is related to the Turkish word for deity, "Tengri"(according to that source). Any thoughts on this?

*It is possible that Kim Taegon's use of Dangol to define southern Shamanism is rather for conceptual purposes than the extent of the term itself, much like how "Dongyi" is an archeological concept different from the "Dongyi" used in Chinese ancient scriptures.
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black man
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Jan 8 2006, 06:29 AM
Dangol is a native word(i.e. not represented by Chinese characters), and in many unconfirmed sources, they mention that Dangol is the native word for Shamanism.* Interesting thing that caught my attention is that in  the word "Mudang", "Mu" is a Chinese character, while "Dang" isn't. Also, Dangol is called "Danggol" or "Danggola" in other regions. Korea's legendary founder, whom Korean historians believe to be a general term for shaman kings, is Dangun. So wouldn't be possible that Dan or Dang stood for something about Shamanism? Or perhaps that Dangun is a sinitic translation of this native word? According to an unconfirmed and radical perspective, this "Dang" is related to the Turkish word for deity, "Tengri"(according to that source). Any thoughts on this?

According to the free excerpt at

http://www.bookrags.com/other/religion/tengri-eorl-13.html, "tengri" originally meant "sky".

If Korean "dang" is related to "tengri", it will have something to do with the spread of social hierachisation and worship of a (male) sky god. It wouldn't be an indigenous, but an imported concept from the Western steppes. The Han Chinese and Tibetans also absorbed related Western religious ideas into their cultures.
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ren
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black man
Jan 8 2006, 01:48 PM
cydevil
Jan 8 2006, 06:29 AM
Dangol is a native word(i.e. not represented by Chinese characters), and in many unconfirmed sources, they mention that Dangol is the native word for Shamanism.* Interesting thing that caught my attention is that in  the word "Mudang", "Mu" is a Chinese character, while "Dang" isn't. Also, Dangol is called "Danggol" or "Danggola" in other regions. Korea's legendary founder, whom Korean historians believe to be a general term for shaman kings, is Dangun. So wouldn't be possible that Dan or Dang stood for something about Shamanism? Or perhaps that Dangun is a sinitic translation of this native word? According to an unconfirmed and radical perspective, this "Dang" is related to the Turkish word for deity, "Tengri"(according to that source). Any thoughts on this?

According to the free excerpt at

http://www.bookrags.com/other/religion/tengri-eorl-13.html, "tengri" originally meant "sky".

If Korean "dang" is related to "tengri", it will have something to do with the spread of social hierachisation and worship of a (male) sky god. It wouldn't be an indigenous, but an imported concept from the Western steppes. The Han Chinese and Tibetans also absorbed related Western religious ideas into their cultures.

As far as I know about Mongolian and Chinese (and Native American) notions of "heaven" (sky Tian/Tien in Chinese), it is not an anthropomorphic god as in IE traditions. It is not male or female but has no form and it's very vaguely defined. The word "god" does it no justice. It is the great beyond from which everything proceeds from and from which everything returns to. In this since, it is very Eastern, very Daoist/Taoist, and arguably very shamanistic, as I;ve seen one author trace back Taoist tradition (espeically the I-Ching/Yi-Jing.. Book of Changes) back to Siberian shamanistic traditions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, I have an archeological/radio carbon study in my possessiont that I've recently read in response to this topic.

The earliest implied evidence of modern man in Korea is 30,000 BP. UP tools are found there that's been dated to then. UP tools are linked with Homo sapiens sapiens, atleast in northern Eurasia.

The next tool tradition appears around 20,000 BP, and it's microlithic, regarded as the direct ancestor to modern people of northern East Eurasia (including Native Americans and modern SE Asians I guesss).

PDF for download:
http://rapidshare.de/files/10687287/RADIOC..._KOREA.pdf.html

File can be also DLed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QuetzalcoatlAnthro/files/.
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cydevil
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Quote:
 
ren
Jan 3 2006, 10:33 PM
Do any of you have any studies on Korea besides these two: http://journeyofman.info/index.php?showtopic=294 ?

Korean samples are also included in e.g. Karafet 2001 (about East Asian y.chromosomes in general) or Tanaka's mtDNA paper. Sources about Koreans in particular seem to be generally restricted to editions in Korean language only. The same can be said about Chinese local studies, btw.

I posted one link at your reference thread, but I don't know whether it's valuable since I can't read the Korean text.


It's a study on Korean mtDNA. I don't have access to the primary source, but according to a newspaper article based on this study:

1. Samples include 200 Koreans from Seoul and Kangnung(eastern Korea).
2. Koreans have at least 26 sub-lineages, which are clustered into two very different macro-lineages.
3. The most ancient among these lineages is said to have mutated 130,000 years ago.
4. According to a comparative analysis, Koreans are most closely related to the Japanese.
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luxemen
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Linguist Alexander Vovin wrote about why he thinks that Korean can be considered as a spin-off of a Paleosiberian language, rather than an Altaic-Tungusic language:

Korean as a Paleosiberian Language

His reasons for why he thinks Korean is a (spin-off of a) Paleosiberian language (but still an isolate at the same time):

1. Phonology - e.g. Korean makes distinction between voiceless steps and voiced fricatives
2. Adjectives - e.g. Korean adjectives are verbs, not nominals
3. A different kind of aggluntiative language - e.g. Korean verbs can be "incorporated" in addition to being "compounded"
4. Ergativity vs. Accusativity - e.g. Korean language is historically ergatitive

He dismisses the Altaic-Korean connection because he doesn't see the syntax (i.e. word order) as having more importance on a language than the four features described above.
Edited by luxemen, Jun 5 2018, 05:36:13 PM.
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