| C1a origins | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 28 2015, 12:08:27 PM (79 Views) | |
| Ebizur | Nov 28 2015, 12:08:27 PM Post #1 |
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"Further, a few samples of Xue et al. 2006 might belong to CTS824+: 1 Daur, 3 Hezhes, 4 Huis, 2 Uygurs and 6 Yaos. Most of these men have hts which seem to be rather similar to each other with the ancestors of the Yao men apparently having split from a northern population to which the ancestors of one Uygur, one Hezhen and four Hui men belonged. In contrast of their hts, the hts of one two other Hezhens and one Daur have relatively high values concerning DYS389i, DYS390 and DYS393 more or less like three of the four Japanese M8+ samples." The last time I looked into this (which was about a year ago), the C* men from East Asia (or at least one Han individual from Hunan) seemed to belong to the C1b lineage: Yan et al. (2014) YCH251 (Han Chinese from Hunan, PRC) C-M130(xM105, M38, M217, M347) YCH251 is positive for C1-F3393 and C1b-F1370 as well as over a hundred other SNPs, including F441, F725, F736, F741, F778, F796, F808, F821, F870, F873, F884, F973, F988, F1033, F1037, F1059, F1109, F1151, F1171, F1220, F1259, F1315, and F1331. Previous research (e.g. Zhong et al. 2010) has suggested that all C* cases in East Asia have a fairly recent TMRCA, perhaps Neolithic or even more recent (e.g. Bronze Age). I'm not sure whether that Daur and two Hezhens might belong to a different subclade. This question surely deserves more research. "As for modern North Asians, their C samples are mostly in the branches typically for modern Amerindians and Han Chinese." It seems to me that the most extreme North Asians contain C2 subclades that are relatively closely related to those found in indigenous Americans, whereas borderline Central/East/North Asians (basically so-called "Altaic peoples") contain C2 subclades that are related to those found in extreme North Asians and Americans plus C2 subclades that are relatively closely related to those found in Hans, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc. I think it is not really clear yet whether the presence of both deep branches of C2 in "Altaic peoples" reflects an origin of haplogroup C2 in that vicinity (i.e. diversity retained near point of origin) or whether it reflects admixture between two long-diverged populations who have happened to come together around Altai/Mongolia/Manchuria. Edited by ren, May 9 2018, 12:18:59 PM.
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| Ebizur | Oct 28 2017, 11:32:22 AM Post #2 |
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It appears that a certain rumor going around Chinese, Japanese, and Korean fora lately has been confirmed by YFull: cf. id:YF11244 on the current version of the YFull YTree. This individual has reported an origin in Liaoning Province of the PRC. He has been classified as belonging to C1a1a-P121, a subclade of C1a1-M8. However, he apparently has been excluded from belonging to C1a1a1-CTS6678 or C1a1a2-Z1356, two subclades of C1a1a-P121 that are represented on YFull by individuals from the JPT sample of the 1000 Genomes Project. The phylogeny downstream of P121 currently is presented as a trifurcation among C1a1a-P121* from Liaoning, C1a1a1-CTS6678 from Tokyo, and C1a1a2-Z1356 from Tokyo. This C1a1a-P121* individual from Liaoning, C1a1a1-CTS6678, and C1a1a2-Z1356 all share at least 326 SNPs that are currently considered to be phylogenetically equivalent to M8 in addition to the M8 SNP itself. In contrast, the Y-DNA of the La Braña 1 specimen from Mesolithic León has been reported by YFull to share only 80 SNPs besides the V20 SNP itself with extant members of C1a2-V20 from Armenia and Europe. Thus, it may be inferred that the C1a1a-P121* individual from Liaoning should be patrilineally significantly more closely related to members of C1a1a1-CTS6678 and C1a1a2-Z1356 from Japan than members of C-V86 from Armenia and modern Europe are related to the C-V20*(xV86) specimen from La Braña. My initial inclination would be to consider the presence of C1a1a-P121* as a rare Y-DNA haplogroup in modern Liaoning in the context of the presence of other uniparental lineages of Korean and/or Japanese affinity, such as Y-DNA haplogroup O1b2-M176 or mtDNA haplogroup N9b, in non-Sinitic populations of greater Manchuria. However, if I recall the discussions in other online fora correctly, the C1a1a-P121* individual from Liaoning self-identifies as a Han Chinese. |
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| Ebizur | Nov 10 2017, 10:22:37 AM Post #3 |
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Update regarding the phylogeny under C1a1-M8: The classification of the Y-DNA of id:YF11244 (who is apparently a self-identified Han Chinese from Liaoning, China) has been updated to C-P121*(xCTS9336) by the Haplogroup YTree v5.07 published November 5, 2017. If this CTS9336 is a valid SNP, then it should indicate that this man's lineage is slightly basal to a branch to which all four C-M8 individuals in the JPT sample belong. At least for now, this appears different from the situation of the only member (as far as I am aware) of haplogroup O-M176 from Northeast China whose Y-DNA has been sequenced to a high resolution in an academic study. That individual, HGDP01240, is labeled as an ethnic Hezhen (i.e. Nanai), and he belongs to mtDNA haplogroup C4b3a (often found among Tungusic peoples like the Nanai as well as among other indigenous peoples of eastern Siberia, such as Yukaghirs and Buryats) and Y-DNA haplogroup O-Y26376 (a subclade of a subclade of O-L682, which has been found with greatest frequency among Koreans, and also in some Chinese individuals from Beijing and Shandong and in some Japanese individuals). The paternal lineage of this O-Y26376 Hezhen appears to share a very recent common ancestor with an individual in the JPT sample from Tokyo. In other words, while the C-P121*(xCTS9336) lineage of id:YF11244 from Liaoning cannot be said to point to the source of Japanese C-CTS9336, and neither can Japanese C-CTS9336 be said necessarily to indicate the source of that Chinese man's lineage, almost all known examples of O-M176 from China, including that of the HGDP01240 Hezhen from Northeast China, seem to be plausibly ascribable to ancient or medieval Korean ancestry (though perhaps undocumented in the case of e.g. this forum's member, miroki). The O-CTS562 lineage of id:NA18563 from the CHB (Han Chinese in Beijing) sample, which has an estimated TMRCA with mainstream Japanese & Korean O-K10 of approximately 12,100 [95% CI 9,700 <-> 14,600] ybp, may seem like a plausibly indigenous Chinese member of haplogroup O-M176. However, a South Korean individual who has reported having the surname "Ryu" belongs to O1b2a1b-CTS3505 according to the Korea DNA Project at FTDNA, so it appears that there is now at least one example of O-CTS562/CTS3505 from Korea. Furthermore, two even more basal branches of O-M176 have been found in individuals of recent Japanese extraction in commercial testing, so even id:NA18563's lineage does not necessarily point toward an origin of Japanese & Korean O-K10 in China 10,000 to 15,000 years ago. A few cases of C-M130(xM217) have been found in Koreans, but Kim et al. 2011 have found all but one of those from Jeju among their samples from South Korea to be also negative for M105, a phylogenetic equivalent of M8 according to the current YFull tree, so they may more likely be related to Chinese & Austronesian C1b1a2b-F725. |
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| Ebizur | Jan 4 2018, 01:01:23 PM Post #4 |
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According to YFull Haplogroup YTree v6.01 published on January 4, 2018, the TMRCA of C-P121 is estimated to be 7,300 [95% CI 5,500 <-> 9,600] ybp. The C-P121 clade includes the Y-DNA of YF11244 (reported to be a Liaoning Han) plus the Y-DNA of four individuals from the JPT sample of Japanese in Tokyo (all four of whom belong to the C-CTS9336 subclade). However, YFull also has estimated a "formed" date for C-M8 of 24,900 [95% CI 21,200 <-> 28,700] ybp, which is much more recent than the estimated TMRCA of C1a-CTS11043: 45,300 [95% CI 41,000 <-> 49,700] ybp. It must be that the administrators at YFull have access to Y-DNA data of a member of C-M8 who is basal to the C-P121 subclade but which they have not been permitted to publish, or else that the top-down method and the bottom-up method of estimating TMRCA have yielded significantly different estimates in the case of this clade. |
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| ren | May 9 2018, 12:16:41 PM Post #5 |
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C1a-CTS9336 (xCTS9336) NE Han _C1a-CTS9336 Japan _C1a-CTS9336 Japan and Korea That NE Chinese seems basal, and thus original, to the Japanese C-M8. Where does it say he is Han? Most likely he is an assimilated Manchu.
Is this the Korean on YFull? https://www.yfull.com/tree/C/ Edited by ren, May 9 2018, 12:19:51 PM.
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| Ebizur | May 9 2018, 01:42:27 PM Post #6 |
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Please review what I have written in the post that you have quoted: "The classification of the Y-DNA of id:YF11244 (who is apparently a self-identified Han Chinese from Liaoning, China) has been updated to C-P121*(xCTS9336) by the Haplogroup YTree v5.07 published November 5, 2017. If this CTS9336 is a valid SNP, then it should indicate that this man's lineage is slightly basal to a branch to which all four C-M8 individuals in the JPT sample belong. At least for now, this appears different from the situation of the only member (as far as I am aware) of haplogroup O-M176 from Northeast China whose Y-DNA has been sequenced to a high resolution in an academic study. In other words, while the C-P121*(xCTS9336) lineage of id:YF11244 from Liaoning cannot be said to point to the source of Japanese C-CTS9336, and neither can Japanese C-CTS9336 be said necessarily to indicate the source of that Chinese man's lineage..." The data currently tabulated on YFull is perfectly ambiguous. It cannot be interpreted to favor a hypothesis of an origin in Liaoning, nor can it be interpreted to favor a hypothesis of an origin in Japan. However, note that YFull has C-M8 K665/Z7099 * IMS-JST022455 * CTS684 +442 SNPs formed 45400 ybp, TMRCA 24100 ybp. I have commented on this detail before. The simplest explanation would be that the administrators at YFull have access to the Y-DNA data of at least one individual who belongs to C-M8(xP121), but the administrators have not been granted permission to add that individual's data to the publicly available version of the YFull YTree. In addition, Hammer et al. (2006) have estimated a TMRCA for their set of Japanese C-M8 Y-chromosomes (n=14 if I remember correctly) on the basis of Y-STR haplotypes that is more than double the estimated TMRCA of C-CTS9336 on YFull YTree v6.02. It seems likely that the four C-M8 individuals in the 1000 Genomes Project's sample of Japanese collected in Tokyo (JPT) all happen to belong to the C-CTS9336 subclade, while more anciently divergent branches of C-M8 may be found with low frequency in Japan as well as in e.g. Liaoning. Id:YF11244 is a commercial (i.e. not scientifically collected) sample ostensibly obtained from an individual who claims to be a Han Chinese from the lower reaches of the Daling River in Daye Township, Linghai, Jinzhou, Liaoning. Daye is on the right (west) bank of the Daling River, slightly northeast of Jinzhou city proper and east of Wendilou Manchu Ethnic Township. He also happens to be able to write in Japanese. Id:YF13170 is likewise a commercial sample ostensibly obtained from an individual who claims to be from Seoul. He cannot be the same as the individual in the sample of people from Jeju in the paper by Kim et al. 2011 unless the particular individual sampled in that academic study subsequently has submitted a sample of his DNA to a commercial DNA testing company and now claims to be from Seoul instead of from Jeju. It is most likely that the individual from Jeju in the sample of Kim et al. 2011 and id:YF13170 are two distinct individuals of South Korean nationality. By the way, please note that id:YF13170 belongs to the C-CTS6678 subclade, and is therefore more closely related in the paternal line to id:NA19006 and id:NA18989 of the JPT sample than he is related to id:NA18974 and id:NA18971, also of the JPT sample, who belong to the C-Z1356 subclade. Anyway, it is clear from all studies published to date that C-M8 must be very rare in South Korea (less than 0.3% of the total male population according to all the data I have at my disposal) and in Manchuria. It is also plausible that the four Japanese C-M8 individuals in the JPT sample of the 1000 Genomes Project do not encompass the full diversity of C-M8 extant in Japan. The ratio of C-M8:D-M55 in South Korea seems similar to that in Japan, so I think it is most likely that both haplogroups in South Korea reflect the same process, probably either (recent/historical) gene flow from Japanese people or in situ assimilation of a Japanese-related substratum. I think gene flow from Japan is the most likely explanation. |
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| ren | May 9 2018, 02:41:12 PM Post #7 |
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How do you know that blog is his? And where do you get private info about him? |
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| Ebizur | May 9 2018, 02:58:08 PM Post #8 |
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The author of that blog has written about sample id:YF11244 in the first person in Japanese. He also has posted about his hometown. I have not seen any incontrovertible evidence that would prove that he is in fact the source of sample id:YF11244. Fundamentally, we should ignore all commercial samples if we want to have a scientific discussion about the origin of C1a1-M8. However, if you do not wish to be so strict, you must admit that his blog provides us with more detailed information regarding id:YF11244 than we have regarding the origins of most commercial samples tabulated on YFull. By the way, in other posts on his blog, "liaoning" has claimed that C-M93 (found in the sample of Japanese analyzed by Underhill et al. 2000) recently has been found to be a subclade of C2c1b-F845 on the basis of two Chinese commercial Y-DNA results and that an example of C1a1*-M8/M105(xP122) has been found in an individual from Chungcheong Province of South Korea. |
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