| Korean Y-DNA | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 17 2017, 12:44:15 PM (1,169 Views) | |
| Ebizur | Feb 17 2017, 12:44:15 PM Post #1 |
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The Y-DNA haplogroup that has undergone the most prolific expansion among the historic and proto-historic Koreans is almost certainly O-L682. This haplogroup has been found in approximately 19% of males from Seoul and Daejeon, South Korea (cf. Kwon et al. 2015). As of February 11, 2017, YFull has five representatives of this clade: two O-Y26376 (one from the PRC and one JPT), two O-CTS723(xY26376) (one from Shandong and one from Beijing), and one O-L682(xCTS723) from the JPT sample. The TMRCA of these three Chinese and two Japanese males is estimated to be 4,000 [95% CI 2,800 <-> 5,200] ybp. The TMRCA of O-L682 plus its nearest outgroup, O-K3, which YFull has found in two individuals in the CHS (Han Chinese South) sample, is 6,300 [95% CI 4,700 <-> 8,000] ybp. This puts an upper bound of about 8,000 years on the age of O-L682 even assuming that the tabulated Chinese and Japanese individuals happen to be more closely related to one another than they are related to some Korean members of this haplogroup. Approximately 9% of present-day South Korean males belong to O-47z, which has been found with greatest frequency in samples of Japanese. Its TMRCA with O-K4, which subsumes O-K3 and O-L682, is estimated to be 8,200 [95% CI 6,300 <-> 10,200] ybp, which places an upper bound of about 10,200 years on the age of O-47z. (The actual TMRCA of the representatives of O-47z that are currently tabulated by YFull, all from the JPT sample, should be approximately 5,000 ybp. It will be interesting to see whether the addition of Korean members of O-47z will cause the estimated TMRCA of O-47z to increase toward the upper bound or whether it will remain at about half that value.) NA19070 from the JPT sample has tested negative for the K27 SNP, positioning it barely outside a clade that subsumes O-K4 and O-47z; I tend to be suspicious of clades defined by just one SNP, but the basal position of NA19070 is corroborated by the fact that it does not share any of the 18 SNPs shared at the K4 level between O-K3 and O-L682 nor any of the 31 SNPs shared by all members of O-47z in the JPT sample. Approximately 2% of present-day South Korean males belong to O-F3356(x47z, L682), which should put them in a phylogenetic position similar either to that of the Southern Han members of O-K3 or to that of the O-F3356(xK27) NA19070 from the JPT sample. YFull has estimated the TMRCA of O-F3356 and its nearest outgroup, O-CTS562, to be approximately 12,100 [95% CI 9,700 <-> 14,600] ybp, which places an upper bound of about 14,600 years on the TMRCA of this section of the Korean Y-DNA pool. Approximately 1% of present-day South Korean males belong to O-M176(xF3356), which should put them in a phylogenetic position similar either to that of NA18563 (an individual from the CHB = Han Chinese in Beijing sample who belongs to O-CTS562) or to that of YF05052 (from Hiroshima, Japan; he lacks 10 SNPs that are shared by all members of O-CTS562 and O-F3356). Theoretically, the upper bound of the TMRCA of these Y-chromosomes is only constrained by the TMRCA of O-M176 and O-K18, which currently is estimated by YFull to be approximately 28,500 [95% CI 26,200 <-> 30,900] ybp. So, the story of O-M176 (former O2b) is beginning to resemble that of other well-known haplogroups, such as R1a-M768 or R1b-M343: a murky Paleolithic ancestry overwhelmed by expansions of the lineages of a few particular Neolithic or post-Neolithic/Metal Age descendants. Still, it might be interesting if YF05052 would share his country of origin. [UPDATE: YF05052 is now listed as being from Japan (Hiroshima).] NA18563 from the CHB sample at least attests to the presence of a rather basal branch of O-M176 outside its present zone of high frequency in Japan and Korea. After O-L682, O-M117 (≈ O-PAGE23) is the second most frequently occurring haplogroup among South Korean males (approx. 12% to 13%). The TMRCA of its predominant subclade throughout East and Southeast Asia, O-F8, is estimated to be 7,300 [95% CI 6,700 <-> 8,000] ybp. O-PAGE23(xF8) appears to be rare, with only one representative on YFull's tree (NA18548 from the CHB sample). Its TMRCA with O-F8 is estimated to be 14,000 [95% CI 12,000 <-> 16,100] ybp, and the interclade TMRCA of O-PAGE23 and O-F444 (i.e. the TMRCA of all known extant members of O-M134 according to YFull) is estimated to be 17,600 [95% CI 15,900 <-> 19,300] ybp. It seems likely that most Korean members of O-M117 will eventually be demonstrated to be descendants of immigrants or settlers ultimately derived from some Neolithic culture of China. O-F444 (≈ O-Y20 ≈ O-M134(xM117)) is roughly tied with O-47z to be the third most frequent Y-DNA haplogroup in South Korea. Kwon et al. 2015 have found O-F444 in 68/706 = 9.63% of Koreans from Seoul and Daejeon. The major expansion of O-F444 has been achieved by its subclade O-CTS2643, whose TMRCA is estimated to be 8,600 [95% CI 7,800 <-> 9,400] ybp. More basal is O-Y12(xCTS2643), which is represented on the YFull tree by NA18635 from the CHB sample. Its TMRCA with O-CTS2643 is estimated to be 13,000 [95% CI 11,300 <-> 14,900] ybp. Even more basal within O-F444 is O-F1725, which is represented on YFull by an individual from the JPT sample and an individual from the KHV (Kinh in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam) sample; the interclade TMRCA of O-F1725 and O-Y12 is estimated to be 13,700 [95% CI 11,900 <-> 15,700] ybp. As in the case of O-M117, O-F444 in South Korea seems likely to reflect immigration or settlement from China. Although O-M117 and O-F444 tend to be somewhat geographically or ethnolinguistically distinct toward the western ends of their distributions (i.e. O-M117 tends to be found with high frequency in speakers of Tibeto-Burman languages, whereas O-M134(xM117) is often found in speakers of Turkic or Mongolic languages), they seem to reflect a relatively homogeneous "Chinese" influence in Korea. This appears to echo the distributions of R-M17 and R-M269 in Western Eurasia, with the great TMRCA between the two clades suggesting a possibility of deep divergence, but with members of both clades together seeming to have been involved in the spread of certain archaeological cultures or ethnolinguistic groups. (However, R1-M173 is probably slightly older than O-M134: interclade TMRCA of R1a-M768 and R1b-M343 is estimated to be 22,800 [95% CI 20,500 <-> 25,100] ybp, intraclade TMRCA of R1b-M343 is estimated to be 20,400 [95% CI 17,600 <-> 23,400] ybp, intraclade TMRCA of R1a-M768 is estimated to be 18,400 [95% CI 16,500 <-> 20,300] ybp. Chronologically, the evolution of O-M134 should parallel most closely that of R1a-M768.) After O-L682, O-M117, O-F444, and O-47z comes O-F11 (approx. 8%). O-F11 is the major Neolithic expansionary subclade of O-JST002611, with rapid diversification starting about 8,700 [95% CI 7,900 <-> 9,600] ybp. O-F238 and O-JST002611(xF11, F238), which are more basal branches of O-JST002611, are each found in about 1% of South Korean males, making the total of all O-JST002611 amount to about 10% of the whole South Korean Y-DNA pool. Kwon et al. 2015 also have found O-KL2(xJST002611) Y-DNA in 11/706 = 1.56% of males from Seoul and Daejeon. The interclade TMRCA of O-KL2 and O-P201 is estimated to be approximately 24,100 [95% CI 22,300 <-> 26,000] ybp, roughly about the same as or slightly greater than the interclade TMRCA of R1a-M768 and R1b-M343. C-CTS2657 is found in approximately 7% of South Korean males, or about half of all South Korean members of Y-DNA haplogroup C. The interclade TMRCA of C-Z8440 and C-CTS2657 is estimated to be approximately 10,600 [95% CI 9,200 <-> 12,100] ybp. Except the fact that it is a subclade of haplogroup C-M130 instead of a subclade of O-M175, there is not much difference between C-CTS2657 and any of the aforementioned subclades of O-M122 in regard to geographic distribution or phylogenetic depth. The C-M407 subclade of C-CTS2657 seems to have expanded several thousand years before present among a population that has contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Mongols. Next comes O-P201(xM159, M7, P164), which is found in approximately 6% of South Korean males. Despite being phylogenetically related to O-M117 and O-F444, both of which appear to be typical Chinese clades, O-P201(xM159, M7, P164) exhibits one of the strongest negative correlations with latitude of any Chinese Y-DNA haplogroup. Among Chinese, it appears to be almost completely limited to southerners, and it is not overall notably frequent among Chinese. O-P201(xM159, M7, P164) is one of the most frequently occurring types of O-M122 Y-DNA in Japan. It seems likely to reflect some sort of interaction among ancestors of Koreans and Japanese (and perhaps also some minority populations of China), and not to be a result of any of the typical ethnic Chinese influences on Korea, but it should be kept in mind that O-P201(xM159, M7, P164) has derived from among the common patrilineal ancestors of the Chinese. Perhaps there has been some very early expansion from the Mesolithic/Early Neolithic core of the proto-Chinese that has influenced their contemporaries to the east and south. The M7 subclade, which has been found with high frequency among modern Hmong-Mien, Katuic, and Bahnaric peoples, occurs rarely in Korea (about 1% of all O-M122, or about 0.4% of the total Korean male population), but O-M7 has been found with about the same low frequency as O-P201(xM159, M7, P164) among modern Han Chinese. Large percentages of the males of many Austronesian-speaking ethnic groups belong to O-P164(xM134), which also has been found in about 1.3% of South Korean males. O-F871, which belongs to O-P164(xM134), is represented on YFull by an individual from Cebu in the Philippines, two southern Han, and a Kinh in Ho Chi Minh City. The interclade TMRCA between Chinese and Vietnamese O-F2472 and Philippine O-F871(xF2472) is estimated to be 12,700 [95% CI 10,200 <-> 15,700] ybp. The next most frequent Y-DNA haplogroup, having been found in approximately 4% of modern South Korean males, is N-M231. Not much data is available regarding the subclades of N-M231 that are found among Koreans, but it is known that some of them belong to widespread subclades, such as N-Tat (cf. Katoh et al. 2005: 2/85 Koreans collected in Seoul by the Catholic University of Korea) and N-M128 (cf. Hammer et al. 2006: 1/75 Koreans from [South] Korea). According to YFull, the N-Y23747 subclade of N-Tat has been found in two Japanese and an ethnic Oroqen in China, with the two Japanese individuals sharing a MRCA approximately 1,950 [95% CI 1,300 <-> 2,900] ybp. The TMRCA between the pair of Japanese and the Oroqen individual is estimated to be approximately 7,000 [95% CI 5,700 <-> 8,400] ybp. This East Asian subclade of N-Tat has a TMRCA with the expansive N-F1419 of Siberia & Europe of approximately 11,900 [95% CI 10,500 <-> 13,500] ybp. As for N-M128, YFull has a Japanese and a Beijing Han in N-F1998 coalescing with two Vietnamese in N-Y23738 at approximately 4,500 [95% CI 3,400 <-> 5,700] ybp, and all these coalescing with an N-M128(xY23741) individual from the PRC at approximately 4,800 [95% CI 3,800 <-> 5,800] ybp. N-M128 is a mostly East Asian counterpart to N-P43, which is a major haplogroup among Uralic speakers in Siberia (i.e. Ugrians and Samoyeds), although certain branches of N-P43 have been found among Turko-Persians (N-VL73: TMRCA approx. 2,000 [1,400 <-> 2,800] ybp) or in northern European Russia and Finland (N-Y3185: TMRCA approx. 2,800 [2,000 <-> 3,700] ybp). The interclade TMRCA between N-M128 and N-P43 is estimated to be approximately 8,900 [95% CI 7,700 <-> 10,200] ybp, so East Asian N-M128 is most likely somewhat more closely related to Ugric & Samoyedic N-P43 than East Asian N-Tat (i.e. N-Y23747) is related to Siberian & European N-Tat (i.e. N-F1419). There is very little available data to bring to bear on any of the remaining Y-DNA haplogroups found among Koreans, which amount to approximately 15% of the total. They are, in approximate order of frequency, O-M119 (about 3%), D-M174 (about 2% to 3%), C-Z8440 (about 2% to 3%), C-F845 (about 2% to 3%), K-M9(xNO-M214) (approx. 2%, including members of Q-M120, R-M207, and L-M20), O-P31(xPK4, M176) (about 1% to 2%), C-L1373 (about 0.7%), F-M89(xK-M9) (about 0.5%), C-M130(xM217) (about 0.3%), and O-M122(xM324) (about 0.3%). Even among these minor haplogroups, the most frequent tend to be typically East Asian ones (O-M119, D-M174, C-Z8440, C-F845, O-P31(xPK4, M176)) that are shared with Chinese, Japanese, or both. I have not seen any data that would preclude a Chinese origin of Korean O-M119, C-Z8440, C-F845, and O-P31(xPK4, M176) or a Japanese origin of Korean D-M174, but it would be premature to make any declaration about their origins at this time. On the basis of currently available data, O-L682 (about 19% of South Korean males), O-47z (about 9%), C-CTS2657 (about 7%), O-P201(xM159, M7, P164) (about 6%), D-M174 (about 2% to 3%), and O-F3356(x47z, L682) (about 2%) seem like the best candidates for Y-DNA haplogroups that might have a more intimate connection with Korea than merely having immigrated from China. These haplogroups add up to about 47% or roughly half of the modern South Korean Y-DNA pool, but it should be noted that some of them (e.g. D-M174, O-47z) may reflect immigration from Japan, which would decrease the "indigenous Korean" fraction by some amount. Furthermore, as I have noted above, although the carriers of some fraction of the O-P201(xM159, M7, P164) lineages probably have long resided in the area as Koreans (or as Japanese or as members of some other non-Chinese ethnic group), they may ultimately be of Mesolithic or early Neolithic proto-Chinese patrilineal ancestry. (Actually, one might make a similar hypothesis about the whole of Korean and Japanese O-M176, in which case C-CTS2657 and perhaps some other subclades of C-F2613 might be considered to represent the direct patrilineal descendants of Paleolithic inhabitants of the Korean Peninsula.) Extraction and analysis of ancient DNA will probably be necessary to resolve satisfactorily the genetic origins of the Koreans. |
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| miroki | Aug 3 2017, 03:29:40 AM Post #2 |
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Hi, I am CTS723* (YF06888). Great article. Do you have contact info of other CTS723*? I am really curious where my ancestors were from. Also, would you suggest any further test I should do? Thanks! |
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| black man | Aug 4 2017, 09:22:46 PM Post #3 |
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The Right Hand
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Welcome to this forum, miroki. Unlike JCA, I'm not familiar with the most recent developments concerning genealogical gene tests. Just judging from the current yfull tree, if you are CTS723+, you can check whether you are Y26376+, too. And in case of the latter, CTS4595, CTS7620, Y26376, Y26377 and Z39506 could moreover be interesting for you. However, when you say, "I am "CTS723*," that seems to imply that you don't have the Y26376 mutation. So the following markers might be more interesting to you: CTS723, CTS2315, Z24621, Z24622, Z24624 and Z24625. As far as I know, none of the so far published papers on results of studies on population genetics mentions any of these markers. Since the CTS723 mutation belongs to a branch present in Beijing and Shandong according to the yfull tree, you could be interested in findings on genomes from a region including Hebei, Shandong, Korea and Japan. In this sense, studies on ancient DNA will be relevant, too. And some of us read one or the other information about ancient cultures within that particular region. E.g., we already have a thread on the DNA of some ancient Dawenkou people. And some of the latter could be in your haplogroup. However, as I already indicated, we cannot know whether any of them actually had the CTS723 mutation. |
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| Ebizur | Aug 30 2017, 04:18:03 PM Post #4 |
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Welcome, miroki. Are you perhaps Mr. Zhang, kit number 306539 in the Y-DNA Haplogroup O Project at Family Tree DNA? Do you not have any genealogical records that suggest a possible Manchu, Korean, Japanese, or Ryukyuan ethnic origin? Where in China were you (or your most recent known patrilineal ancestor from China) born? Do you know of any familial history of migration within China? |
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| Ebizur | Aug 31 2017, 01:19:11 AM Post #5 |
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There now appears to be a member of the Haplogroup O Project at Family Tree DNA whose O1b2 lineage is even more basal than that of the divergent lineage from Hiroshima. (That lineage from Hiroshima is perhaps that of a certain Mr. Mori from the FTDNA Haplogroup O Project, or at least shares a similar phylogenetic position as that Mr. Mori, being Page92+, F2315-.) In the column for "Paternal Ancestor Name," this member has input "Hirata, circa 1878, Japan," which, according to the usual pattern that members have followed when inputting data in this field, should mean that his most ancient recorded patrilineal ancestor's name was Hirata. Hirata may, of course, be a Japanese surname, but it is also the name of many places in Japan, such as the following: *Yamagata-ken, Akumi-gun, Hirata-machi (Hirata Town, Akumi County, Yamagata Prefecture) -- part of Sakata City since November 1, 2005 *Fukushima-ken, Ishikawa-gun, Hirata-mura (Hirata Village, Ishikawa County, Fukushima Prefecture) *Fukushima-ken, Shinobu-gun, Hirata-mura (Hirata Village, Shinobu County, Fukushima Prefecture) -- part of Shinobu Village from March 1, 1955 to June 1, 1966 and part of Fukushima City since that time *Gifu-ken, Kaidzu-gun, Hirata-chou (Hirata Town, Kaidzu County, Gifu Prefecture) -- part of Kaidzu City since March 28, 2005 *Shimane-ken, Hirata-shi (Hirata City, Shimane Prefecture) -- part of Izumo City since March 22, 2005 *Hirata, the name of a neighborhood in the northern part of Ichikawa City, Chiba Prefecture that consists of four chou (丁, blocks) *Hirata, the name of a neighborhood in the southern part of Matsumoto City, Nagano Prefecture that consists of five chou since 1996 (Administratively, it has never been an independent municipality since the establishment of the current Japanese system; it was part of Yoshikawa Village from April 1, 1889 to August 1, 1954.) Anyway, very divergent members of haplogroup O1b2 are gradually being detected. Miroki's lineage, however, shares a common ancestor with a Japanese individual and a Hezhe (Nanai in the PRC) individual as recently as 3,100 years before present, and belongs to a clade (O-L682) that is now predominantly Korean. |
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| Ebizur | Oct 13 2017, 01:19:00 PM Post #6 |
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One member of the FTDNA Haplogroup O Project has reported his surname as "Yoon" and his paternal ancestor's name as "Yoon Shin-Dal (윤신달) (893-973) Korea." This means that he at least considers himself to be a member of the Papyeong Yoon clan, to which approximately 1.5% of South Koreans have claimed membership in the year 2000. This individual's Y-DNA appears to have been classified as O1b1a2b2-CTS1451, which is a subclade of O1b1a2-CTS10887 (O1b1-K18(xO1b1a1-PK4)). O-CTS1451 is not tabulated on the YFull YTree v5.06, but it should appear in the same position as NA19055 of the JPT sample in O1b1a2b-F417*(xO1b1a2b1-CTS250). If one assumes that all South Koreans who have claimed membership in the Papyeong Yoon clan do in fact share the same patrilineal ancestor within a historical time frame (although I believe that to be unlikely), then the Papyeong Yoon clan on its own might account for nearly all South Korean members of haplogroup O1b-M268(xO1b2-M176). In another thread, I have written the following:
YFull YTree v5.06 no longer provides a TMRCA estimate for O-CTS10887 or any of its subclades. However, in light of this Mr. Yoon's data on FTDNA, I would update my comment regarding Korean O-P31(xM95, M176) and say that perhaps most of them in this case should belong to a subclade that is found more often in Korea and Japan (though rare even there) than in China, although O-CTS10887 is overall a mostly Han Chinese (and especially Northern Han) Y-DNA haplogroup. |
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| black man | Oct 13 2017, 03:48:53 PM Post #7 |
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Fig. S1 of Cai et al. 2011 features an O-P31+, M95- MJN which appears to include the major Yao ht of Xue et al. 2006: according to this MJN, this ht derives from an "Altaic"/HM ht ("Yao Bama 17" and "Manchu 5" if I'm not mistaken). However, all potential Han hts within this MJN are derived from the latter ht or other non-Han hts. Sources: Cai et al. 2011: "Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes"; doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0024282 Xue et al. 2006: "Male Demography in East Asia"; doi: 10.1534/genetics.105.054270 addendum: the "Altaic" ht identical with the major HM ht in the MJN of Cai et al. 2011 seems to be "Daur35" of Xue et al. 2006. Edited by black man, Oct 13 2017, 03:59:44 PM.
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| Ebizur | Oct 13 2017, 04:30:56 PM Post #8 |
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If the number of Hans examined is disproportionately small compared to the number of Hmong-Miens or "Altaics" examined, then it is almost a matter of course that the Han haplotypes that are found will appear to be derived from haplotypes that are represented by greater numbers of individuals from other ethnic or linguistic groups. In the real world, there are several facts that make a hypothetical Han origin more plausible than a hypothetical Mien (or Hmong-Mien) or Manchu (or Tungusic) origin: *All three primary subclades of O-CTS10887 as well as O-F838 have Han members, and they have been found all over China (and beyond China's borders in areas that have received Chinese migration: Vietnam, the Philippines, Indonesia, etc.). *China proper is located between territory that historically has been inhabited by Manchus and territory that is inhabited by Yaos. *Haplogroup O-M175 is practically absent from populations of Siberia (and most of the few cases that have been found belong to O2-M122). *The population size of the Han Chinese is two orders of magnitude greater than that of the Manchus or the Miao, and almost three orders of magnitude greater than that of the Yao. *Ancient DNA evidence for the presence of one branch of O-CTS10887 (that which includes Cao Ding's lineage) among Chinese of the Han era. Of course, the evidence for any hypothetical origin of O-CTS10887 is controvertible at this point. I simply think that a median-joining network of Y-STR haplotypes is weak evidence when the sampling rationale is unclear. |
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| miroki | Dec 31 2017, 02:24:33 AM Post #9 |
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Hi JCA Yes, this is him. I don't think there's any hint in my ancestral records showing heritage any than Han Chinese. My grandfather's family has lived in Laiwu, Shandong province for centuries. i'm afraid record before that has lost in history (the story is family moved from Shanxi Dahuaishu, the same as many other chinese famlies during the time), which is not useful |
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| miroki | Dec 31 2017, 02:27:14 AM Post #10 |
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Hi black man. In fact, i'm on yfull tree, the CTS723* from Shandong. Curiously, I'm supposed to find more Koreans sharing the same Y with me. but apparently, Koreans seem to be reluctant to share their Big Y data somehow. |
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| Hafu | Apr 30 2018, 02:49:24 AM Post #11 |
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Hello everyone, I am waiting on the 'Predicted Haplogroup' any day now from FTDNA, but at the moment I DO know that my Subclade is O1b2 O-P49+. My Great-Grandfather, Youn Kwang-Sook, came from Hyesan, immigrated to the US in 1905 from the Court of Yi before it completely fell to the Japanese Occupation years later. There is a growing body of evidence however that is showing his own parentage came from Japan, at least in part, somehow. Once I get my other data from FTDNA, I will have more to work with on that end beyond family records, stories, etc. According to 23andme, I have the Haplogroup M176 (O1-F3356) and 'recent' Japanese ancestry, aside from the obvious Korean, although their estimations are FAR off. Look for me and my info on the Korean/Y DNA O Haplogroup Project FTDNA lists under 'Young'. My Haplogroup should be there anytime soon. 'Young' was what my Great-Grandfather did after moving here in the 40's to keep from being placed in the Japanese Internment Camps, he simply took his surname 'Youn' and added the 'g' to blend in and still maintain a little Koreanness... Edited by Hafu, Apr 30 2018, 02:54:10 AM.
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| luxemen | Apr 30 2018, 06:44:15 PM Post #12 |
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Hello Hafu - Nice to meet you. My male Korean relative recently tested on 23andme and also got a big chunk of his DNA labeled as "Japanese" with recent Japanese ancestors in his family. As far as he knows he doesn't have a recent Japanese ancestor. However, his family is originally from the Southeastern side of Korea near Japan (e.g. near Busan). I wonder if this is due to 23andme's algorithm that over-compensates for Japanese DNA, at least among Korean individuals. The newer V-chip that 23andme uses is much more accurate for Koreans, with many people now getting over 95% Korean in their DNA. It's still rather difficult to find a Korean person without any % of Japanese in them though, however. |
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| Hafu | Apr 30 2018, 08:50:04 PM Post #13 |
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Nurizone, I was aware of that with 23andme. Their system fails to separate Koreans from Japanese mostly, and I first considered that, but my Great-Grandfather's first born child was given a Japanese name, 'Mo Kai' (Sea Child), on his way to Hawaii for his Contract Labor job which is one factor. Another, I have both Korean and Japanese ancestry too, apart, and the Japanese precede the Korean by many generations (on 23andme and GEDmatch). FTDNA's SNP Map shows that my Subclade O-P49 is found around the Andong region of South Korea and the Nagano Prefecture of Japan (where Mr. Hirata might be from, who has a matching subclade as my own). Looking at the history, I see that many Japanese sent over trading merchants in three ports by the 18th Century, one of which was at Hamgyong, south of Hyesan. So it is plausible that some interaction between the populace at some level, outside of the usual strict Yangban rules may have happened. After all, due to the Meiji Era, the samurai were now out of work, and I do match with many clans in Japan already. But...until my FTDNA is done and finalized in the next few days to weeks, I can't be exact on the finer details.... |
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| luxemen | Apr 30 2018, 11:29:30 PM Post #14 |
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That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing the background context. In your case you probably do have a good reason to believe that the Japanese ancestry showing up on 23andme is actually accurate... Yes, do come back to post to share your results once you get them. (Have you tried analyzing your results on Gedmatch? They are very good at showing 'deep ancestry'. There's actually a really good way to figure out if you're truly a Japanese-shifted Korean. If you're interested, I can share with you the details on how to use the various calculators.) |
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| Hafu | Apr 30 2018, 11:47:03 PM Post #15 |
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Nurizone, Yeah, I have used the many GEDmatch ancestry calculators and they give me a mostly consistent set of results, usually low on 'Korean' or 'KR', etc and a higher proportion of Japanese, Northern Han, Mongolian and Manchurian. I also used WeGene, but even their's appears to skip both the Korean and Japanese entirely! They give me 'Gaoshan', 'Mongolian' and the peoples of Taiwan oddly... Perhaps, once my raw data from FTDNA is done, I can upload into their system and see what results I get? By the way, ysearch.org isn't working on Chrome at all. It isn't showing up at all, and I have to use IE instead, but even that fails to work, especially the option to contact people. I think the Captcha is causing various scripting errors on the page. Because the site isn't working, it lead me here to find many of the same people. |
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| luxemen | May 1 2018, 12:02:36 AM Post #16 |
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Yes, you should be able to upload your FtDNA data onto Gedmatch. Actually having two sets of data in there would be a good way to confirm whether the results you're getting now are accurate. There's also an option to do a 'cross-kit' comparison for users like you who may have more than one set of raw DNA in there. May I ask, what are your proportions (roughly) on the MDLP K23b calculator on Gedmatch? That is a pretty reliable calculator that shows your deep ancestry. Do you know what you got (percentage-wise) for your Tungus_Altaic, Austronesian, and Southeast Asian DNA? |
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| Hafu | May 1 2018, 12:22:29 AM Post #17 |
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Because I am part European, my percentages are going to be low (and due to the raw data are given by 23andme), but here they are: Austronesian 2.68 South_East_Asian 3.51 Tungus-Altaic 3.51 |
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| luxemen | May 1 2018, 12:54:50 AM Post #18 |
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Hmm, thanks for sharing. I didn't realize you're part European. That does make it a bit trickier to interpret these numbers. Normally, a Japanese person scores higher on Tungus-Altaic element compared to SE Asian, whereas a Korean scores higher on SE Asian compared to Tungus-Altaic, although the proportions for both populations are roughly 4:4:2. (Tungus-Altaic/Southeast Asian/Austronesian). But those comparisons are only useful for full-Korean/Japanese individual. In your case, I'm assuming you're 1/8 Asian? So I guess the point is moot here... In any case, I hope that you get your FtDNA soon and find the information you're looking for re: your Asian side of your heritage. |
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| Hafu | May 1 2018, 12:58:46 AM Post #19 |
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The European side of my genetics messes with things, you are right! That is why I am getting many genetic tests done to verify the results, and to back my actual family data as well. Since immigration, we have had some European blood in the recent generations get in the way now. It does make things complicated... |
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| luxemen | May 1 2018, 01:03:10 AM Post #20 |
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Yeah, since you're getting tested on both 23andme and FtDNA platforms (as well as others) I hope that you'll get more accurate results that you want
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| Hafu | May 1 2018, 01:08:28 AM Post #21 |
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That is my hope as well. 23andme was a great start, and using GEDmatch and WeGene too, but I need a more detailed analysis of my Haplogroup due to its rarity. I think they will aid in my search for the TMCA, etc that I require and figure out how the Manchurian and Mongolian (Daur) also found its way into our past. |
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| black man | May 1 2018, 09:32:55 PM Post #22 |
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The Right Hand
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Welcome to this forum. Do they actually use samples from Tungusic-speaking people as reference points? If yes, our threads on the ethno-genetic backgrounds of Tungusic-speaking peoples could be of interest to you. Some Tungusic-speakers might have Manchu, Han Chinese and/or Korean admixtures. |
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